Resourcefulness, resilience, and collaboration are critical mindsets, and skill sets, for students to develop. For schools to support those outcomes, educators must have the opportunity to develop the same. Mitch Weisburgh, the author of, “Mindshifting: Stop Your Brain from Sabotaging Your Happiness and Success,” explores the importance and possibilities.

What’s the role of wellbeing and hope in achieving long term, deep learning?

Visit the Mindshifting Website & connect with Mitch here.

Download “Why We React Instead of Respond” — a free MindShifting Conversation Circle for your educator team here.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.340] – Steve [Intro]
Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.

[00:00:29.720] – Steve
Building resourcefulness, resilience, and collaboration. Our podcast guest today is the author of, “Mind Shifting: Stop Your Brain from Sabotaging Your Happiness and Success,” Mitch Weisburgh. Mitch focuses on teaching people to reframe their thinking, confront unproductive narratives, and replace them with clarity and action. He provides professional development courses that equip teachers with research-backed cognitive strategies to transform the way they approach teaching, conflict resolution, and student engagement. I’m especially looking forward to learning about his insights on building resourcefulness, resilience and collaboration – all important for students, teachers, and school leaders. Welcome, Mitch, and thanks for joining us.

[00:01:31.130] – Mitch
Well, Steve, thank you for inviting me and looking forward to a spirited discussion. And we’re gonna be talking about these different topics, but please, anything that you disagree with or you question, let me know and I’ll tell you why you’re wrong. [laughter]

[00:01:46.750] – Steve
laughter] Okay, that’s great. So would you start with just some description of what you mean by mind shifting and the connection, you know, within the title of your book about sabotaging happiness and success?

[00:02:00.840] – Mitch
Sure. So basically, the way our minds operate, and it’s an oversimplification, is we have really two modes of operating. One is what I would call survival mode. And those parts of the brain evolved first. And survival mode is basically as it sounds. It’s allowing the organism to survive. And that part of the brain needs very, very little information to come to a conclusion and decide what to do. And it’s primarily looking for threats. That part of the brain wakes up in like 2/100ths of a second. So, you know, somebody bumps into us and in 2/100ths of a second, we start like, some reaction that, we have to push them back or we can ignore it or whatever the reaction is, it’s really quickly. Then the parts of the brain that we’re really trying to develop in school, which is the part that, you know, critical thinking, innovative thought, empathy, executive function, that part of the brain evolved much, much later in organisms. And it takes maybe 2 seconds to wake up. So you think about it, something happens, we come to some survival mechanism in order to handle it. And then our thinking part of the brain wakes up, it takes a look around and says, “oh, we’re doing this? This must be the reason we’re doing it.”

[00:03:27.230] – Mitch
And so we come up with a rationalization for whatever it is that we’re doing, whether we know we can’t do math, or we know we have to push back against this person, or we know we have to out-talk somebody, or whatever it is that we’ve decided to do, the rational part of the brain, by default, comes up with a reason why that’s the right path to take. But it also has the capability to be self-aware. And when we learn the techniques and how to recognize when we’re in survival brain, we can take a step back, pause, and come up with actions and feelings that are much more appropriate to the situation. Because very often, it isn’t a threat, but our survival brain has interpreted it as a threat. But we can say, well, wait a minute, you know, saying I’m just feeling a little bit uneasy about math, but I feel a little bit uneasy every time I try something new. That’s just part of getting ready and trying something new. And then we can change our whole attitude. And that would be a shift. We’re shifting from a survival mechanism into one that actually aligns more with what we really want to accomplish.

[00:04:36.770] – Steve
So does that shift generally require a pause?

[00:04:41.990] – Mitch
It’s funny as you said that – I’m thinking that shift always requires a pause. And actually what that shift requires is number one, a degree of self-awareness. And so part of what learning about mind shifting is learning to recognize the situations where we are in reactive mode and even better recognizing situations and preparing for situations where we will be in, where we would normally be in reactive mode so that we can prepare to be in resourceful mode when we confront them.

[00:05:20.640] – Steve
As I was listening to you, a piece that I hadn’t connected until I was hearing your explanation, but starting years back, one of the trainings I did in verbal communication skills was for people facilitating a group or leading a conversation and getting a resistant negative response from a member. I used to teach a skill called the supporting statement. But as part of the training, I suggest to people, when you hear it, you take what I was calling an aggressive step backwards. In other words, you aren’t running away, but you’re stepping back. You may even be spreading your feet a little bit because you’re now going to be in a position to explain yourself.

[00:06:14.840] – Mitch
Yep.

[00:06:15.420] – Steve
But without that step backwards, you tended to defend yourself instead of being able to explain yourself. That’s a mind shift.

[00:06:25.510] – Mitch
Yep, that’s a mind shift. And I’ll say, none of the things that I put into the courses that I teach or the two books that I wrote, none of them, or virtually none of them, are mine. They’re things that I’ve gotten from reading the research around psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, coaching, organizational development, military strategy, economics, decision-making, you know? So what I’ve tried to do is pull together these different things, just like your step back is how do you – how do successful people navigate these situations so that we can move forward instead of just constantly tearing at each other’s throats?

[00:07:08.420] – Steve
So I’m wondering what in your experiences or background led you to tackle working in this area?

[00:07:15.970] – Mitch
Well, I’ve always taken courses you know, in neurolinguistic programming back in the ’80s and ’90s. I took the Landmark series of courses, which stemmed from Werner Erhard. I’ve always been interested in books, but the thing, there are two things that really crystallized it for me is, you know, having been through all those, and I can’t remember the exact meeting where this occurred, but I was at this meeting with, you know, like 70, 80 people and somebody says, “Mitch, Why don’t you tell us about your mission?” And at the time, I was in education and it was like, “I don’t… My mission…” But I had to talk, right? So I stood up, you know, and it’s like, okay, so my mission is that education should be the mechanism where we give every kid a chance to live great lives as adults. That’s my mission. And if you look at it, we’re failing virtually every kid in this country right now because 20 to 30%— and this is like off the cuff, right? 20 to 30% of the kids who go through education, they don’t graduate.

[00:08:25.980] – Mitch
And if they don’t graduate, they’re behind – their life is over, basically. They have no chance. And then two-thirds of the kids that are left – by the time they graduate, they’re not ready for work, they’re not ready for school, for college, they’re not ready for families, they’re not ready to be citizens. And we failed all of those kids at all as well. And then the kids that are left, so many of them, they could have soared, you know, in 3rd grade, they could have been doing reading 9th grade books. They could have been doing 10th grade math. And what have we done to them? We’ve said, you know something, you’re in 3rd grade, you finish your work early, here’s another worksheet, do this again. And so we hold back all those kids, so we’re failing those kids also. And so as a country, as a society, we’re failing virtually every kid and we have to do something about it. And so that kind of crystallized in me that something was really wrong. Then, the second thing that happened is because I was known as kind of an expert in education technology, this is around 2017, I get an email from a university saying, “Mitch, can you talk to our undergraduates about, about edtech?”

[00:09:36.490] – Mitch
And I’m like, “no, I got into education because I thought edtech was gonna do this.” And 15 years later we’re no better off. So I’m not talking to them about edtech, but you know what I could do? I could talk to them about how successful people navigate situations so that they end up with the results that they really want. And how do they make sense of situations and proceed. And so we started negotiating because they’re saying, “Wow, that’d be really good. Why don’t you teach a semester course?” And I’m like, “I don’t think I can teach a semester course.” But we settled on a 2-day workshop. And we’re talking in like June 2017, and I was gonna give the workshop in February. And being kind of an entrepreneurial type person, it’s like, “Yeah, yeah, I’ll do this. I’ll teach it in February. It’ll be a 2-day workshop. It’ll be great.” Okay. We shook hands and it was free, but you know, it’s still, you know, closed the deal. And then like the next day, it’s like, Mitch, you idiot. How are you going to do this? You’ve never done this before. But I had 6 months.

[00:10:41.690] – Mitch
So, I read all these books on all these different, you know, as I said, economics, psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience. I put everything together, I go to teach the course, and after the 2-day workshop, the kids stood up and cheered. So it kind of confirmed to me all these skills are learnable. When people learn them, it’s like, oh my gosh, I can really use these. They’re teachable and we don’t teach them. And so that then became my mission. I switched over from advising schools and companies on education technology to doing mind shifting and developed this mission of like, what if we could get a critical mass of people on this planet who could be resourceful, resilient, and collaborative no matter what the situation is and return to that state? Wouldn’t that, A, allow them to live happier and more productive lives? But B, wouldn’t they then inspire the rest of us to live that way and start solving all these issues that we’re facing instead of fighting about them? And so kind of an arbitrary number. So I chose 5 million people.

[00:11:52.940] – Mitch
Like, how could we get 5 million people? And, you know, because my background is in education, it’s like, well, you know something, who are the, who are the people who most influence the next generation? Teachers, right? You know, teachers touch kids all the time. And so, how do I reach teachers so that teachers can teach these techniques to kids and learn them themselves? And so through dumb luck, really, I was able to get approved for the courses in the state of Washington. And then a couple years later in the state of New York. And so now I teach a course on resourcefulness, the course on resilience, and the course on conflict and collaboration. I teach them to educators in Washington and New York. Teachers take them free. And they register for the courses and teachers take the courses because they look at it and, and they say, you know, saying, the kids I’m teaching, they don’t have grit, or, they’re not innovative, they’re not using their creative thinking or not critically thinking. And this course says I can teach them that.

[00:13:06.690] – Mitch
And so I’m gonna take this course and they go into the course and then, and then within 15 minute, the teachers, the people in the course are like, “Oh my gosh, I’m not living this way. How do I learn to be more resourceful? How do I learn to be more resilient?” And then they start developing techniques that not only apply to the classroom, but it’s like, “Boy, I’ve been having this argument with my wife for 10 years, and I just realized those are just our survival reactions. And the issue really wasn’t important to either one of us.” You know, and so they learn that in the personal life. They learn with the kids, like, I always thought this kid was difficult, but you said for one of your exercises, you said I have to be empathetic for the entire day. And so every time I’m interacting with somebody, I have to think to myself, how would I respond if I was empathetic? So I saw this child there and they were frowning, and normally, I would have just let them go, but this time it’s like, how would I respond if I were empathetic?

[00:14:10.200] – Mitch
And I went to the child and I talked to them, and it turned out that their pet died the previous day, and we talked about it. And she says, and then at the end of the day, I’m walking out, and this child comes running to me, jumps up, and gives me a great big hug and said, I had the best day because of you. So, that’s how people are affected by this material. Yes, I put it together, but none of this stuff is mine.

[00:14:36.870] – Steve
Well, Mitch, as I looked at your work and dug into your website a little bit, I got very interested when you talked about the interconnectedness of resourcefulness, resilience, and collaboration. And those words have all been big to me for a bunch of years, going back to looking at building the 4C’s into curriculum. And our company and my work years before that were talking about giving kids experiences with what we were calling, “live event learning.” It’s the real world is where those things are kind of likely to happen. But would you start first a little bit about how you describe that connectedness of resourcefulness, resilience, and collaboration?

[00:15:36.770] – Mitch
Sure. So, I call those the three elements of mind shifting. And so the resourcefulness part of it is how do you control your own brain? And really, that’s the basis of everything, because if you really, really control your own brain, then that affects the way you look at situations, that affects how you work with other people. So how do you develop the capacity so that it becomes a habit to be monitoring, am I in survival mode? Am I in resourceful mode? Am I going into a situation where I would normally be in survival mode? How do I prepare myself to be resourceful throughout that situation? And so that’s number one, is your own brain. And then the second part of it, which is what I call the resilience part, is how do we react with situations? And again, you know, you can think about it with our brain, but with this situation, you know, we’re primed to think that every situation has a right solution. And then if we do that right solution, it’s going to solve the problem. And, actually neither one of those are generally correct. So very often we walk into a situation and there is no one right solution.

[00:16:51.940] – Mitch
There are many possible right solutions, and they need analysis, or they need expertise, or they need data. And you put them all together. And for example, if you wanted to build a school, okay, you could go to 5 different architects. They’re all experts. You’ll get 5 very different designs. Any one of them could work. Now, there may be trade-offs, you know, one may have bigger classrooms, might have, one might have bigger common areas, but basically any of them would work for a school. Okay, and that is what we call like a complicated issue. So that’s one way that one solution isn’t necessarily the right solution. And the other thing is that so many of the things that we do, nobody is an expert in. Just take a look at COVID – there was no expert in how we’re going to survive COVID, but people presented themselves like experts like, “oh, masks don’t do anything. So nobody wear a mask because it’s not going to do anything.” And then like, “oh no, I’m the same expert. And what I told you before, okay, no, as long as you wear a mask, it doesn’t matter what kind of a mask it is.

[00:18:00.380] – Mitch
Just put on a mask and nobody’s going to catch COVID.” And you know that we had this contradictory pronouncements by the experts time and time again when actually this was a brand new situation. Nobody was an expert. And And so those we call complex situations. And in a complex situation, since nobody’s an expert, then what we have to do is we have to come up with different things that we can try. And the things that we can try are not gonna really put us in harm’s way, but they’re gonna give us information back that we can then use to take the next step and go through an iterative approach. So then going from that, since most of the things we actually do, most of the problems we confront, are complex, then the question is, well, how do we deal with those complex situations? And what I recommend is an iterative process that was developed in the Air Force in the 1950s and 1960s, where it has its elements of observe, orient, decide, and act. And then it’s a loop because you go back and you observe again, and then you reorient to come up with what you do, and then you decide on something to do, and then you act, and then you observe again.

[00:19:06.620] – Mitch
And you’re prepared to go through that loop. So in resilience, it’s up to a large extent, how do you assess what type of a situation it is? And then once you’ve assessed the type of situation, how do you come up with different things that you could do? And if it’s a complex situation, how do you prepare for the fact that the first thing that you’re going to do is at best going to give you information, but it isn’t going to really completely solve the situation. And when you do that, this whole idea of grit and persistence melts away. Because if I go into a situation and I think I’m gonna succeed and I do something and it doesn’t work, I have to like say, “Okay, Mitch, you’re a failure. You screwed it up. But if you were a man, you would work your way through it and you would do it right. Now, come on, do it again.” And you know, that takes a lot of energy, right? So if I go into the situation understanding that it’s complex, it’s like, “Okay, you know something?” Here’s a situation, what can I do so that I can get some information back?

[00:20:04.190] – Mitch
And I do it, I don’t get angry at myself when it doesn’t work. I say, so what was the information? What was the gift here? And I look at the information. And to a certain extent, so you should see how that’s related to the resourcefulness, right? Because you’re kind of controlling your mind, but you’re doing it in relation to the situations.

[00:20:20.810] – Steve
Just before you jump there, because that’s really the definition of teaching. There’s certainly no one right answer.

[00:20:28.780] – Mitch
There isn’t? [laughter]

[00:20:31.640] – Mitch
Wait a minute, you mean all these people who said all we have to do is test, they were wrong? Come on.

[00:20:38.980] – Steve
[laughter] I mean, it’s really the whole built-in piece for me in my work of the coach being a thinking partner. So the coach is collecting data that the teacher perhaps didn’t see or hear, and then creating the opportunity for the teacher to add that data to the data the teacher was able to collect. And then the teacher to think through what’s the next step.

[00:21:10.050] – Mitch
So as you’re saying that, the thing that that triggers in my mind is also is we have a choice with information like that. We can use the information in order to improve or we could use that information to punish or reward. But we can’t use the information for both because as soon as we use the information to punish or reward, we’re changing the whole behavior to get to avoid the punishment and to get the reward. And so that’s one of the big problems that we have in this country is that we use grades and test scores in order to punish or reward kids.

[00:21:48.100] – Steve
Right. We try to use teacher evaluation to improve teaching. It ain’t never gonna happen.

[00:21:52.740] – Mitch
It’s not because we’re also using it, you say, you know, to fire or promote or whatever. So yeah, you know, and I know, you know, we may be touching on AI, but that’s part of it with AI also is that if we’re gonna reward or punish results, then the use of AI is going to get corrupted to produce quicker results or better results. Whereas what we really want for education is building skills.

[00:22:17.500] – Steve
So build the collaboration part in yet for us, because it’s almost sounding as I was getting to talk out loud to you about the concept of coaching, tackling that resilience issue of there isn’t a right answer, that almost seems in my head like I’m setting up collaboration there.

[00:22:37.980] – Mitch
It really does, yes. That’s a perfect segue. Because if we’re going into coaching and we’re sure we have the right answer, then the person we’re coaching, what they’re going to be picking up is, this person thinks I’m bad. This person is attacking me. Whereas, if we’re picking up the information, what we really want to happen is like, okay, here is teaching, these are the results we wanted, but these are the results that we get. How can you and I work together so we get closer to the results that we want? So instead of me telling you what to do, it’s how do you and I attack this problem together. And so that’s, you know, part of what we’re doing in collaboration or conflict and collaboration. Anytime where we see, we want a person to do something different from what they would normally do, whether acquire more skills, that sets up a possibility for conflict. And so, we should be prepared for that. We wanna learn how to present the information in a way that’s non-threatening so that there’s a much less likelihood of a conflict. And when there is a conflict, we have to learn the techniques of how to defuse the conflict.

[00:24:00.600] – Mitch
And our natural ways of doing that don’t work because rewards and punishments, they might work in the short term and they might elicit compliance, but nobody is for the long term is motivated, or very, very few people are motivated purely by rewards or punishments. You learn how to manipulate the system in order to be rewarded or to avoid the punishment. Facts and logic, that’s not how people make decisions. Decision-making actually takes place in the limbic, in the emotional parts of the brain. So we rationalize it by facts and logic, but presenting facts and logic don’t win people over. People are won over when they have a connection to you and when they feel that you’re really interested in them. So how do you develop the techniques to be able to phrase things in a way that people are willing to collaborate? And I will say, that’s not saying that everything has to be in negotiation because there are times where you’re in a position of authority and you need to make the decision and you need people to follow what you do.

[00:25:10.350] – Mitch
You know, there’s a fire or a kid isn’t doing their homework or a kid is misbehaving or you’re a parent and it’s bedtime for your child. So how do you phrase that in a way that makes it clear that you are the authority? You’re doing this because you believe it’s their best interest, but it’s the rule and they have to do it. So learning how to phrase things, learning how to establish those connections, learning how to build a long-term connection so that you can move forward, that’s the whole basis of the Conflict and Collaboration course, or that’s the whole basis of the Mindshifting Conflict and Collaboration book.

[00:25:50.590] – Steve
So what do kids need to be experiencing in school?

[00:25:55.530] – Mitch
Oh, that’s such a broad question.

[00:25:57.910] – Steve
To move us in that, I mean, you’re describing a really important, powerful direction.

[00:26:06.060] – Steve
I wonder if there’s a big – is there a big picture of what does a school look like and feel like that heads us in that direction?

[00:26:16.950] – Mitch
So long-term deep learning takes place from a feeling of well-being and hope.

[00:26:25.620] – Steve
Powerful words. Can you repeat them?

[00:26:28.260] – Mitch
Okay. I’m probably not going to get it exactly, but long-term deep learning takes place from a position of well-being and hope.

[00:26:41.340] – Steve
That’s quotable, Mitch.

[00:26:43.080] – Steve
Very quotable.

[00:26:43.600] – Mitch
Oh, thank you. So if schools can help kids get into a place, if teachers can do this, if the environment of the school can do this, and if the environment of the school can do this for the teachers as well, where the teachers also – especially because you want the kids to have it, the teachers have to feel –

[00:27:03.920] – Steve
Absolutely.

[00:27:04.400] – Mitch
Well-being and hopeful as well. So if we can build school communities where the participants in the community are coming from a position of well-being and hope and self-confidence, then, that’s the whole basis.

[00:27:22.580] – Steve
So administrators and instructional coaches, in effect, need to be modeling that in the way that they work with staff.

[00:27:35.660] – Mitch
Well, only if they want to build deep learning and happy lives for the kids. Okay, and I’m half joking, but practically, administrators, coaches, they have their jobs. And to the extent that society says it’s test scores, then they have it’s a really difficult balance because, you’re being judged on the test scores, but the test scores aren’t really what builds the school. They can be used as a result of all these other things that you do, but the pressure is like, okay, do the things that improve the test scores. And then that destroys the long-term effects of learning skills because learning is something, something that’s really enjoyable if you’re coming from a place of well-being.

[00:28:29.620] – Steve
I implemented a phrase years ago that the job of effective leaders is to protect the people you’re working with from the system.

[00:28:39.080] – Mitch
Wow.

[00:28:40.540] – Mitch
Oh, that’s so powerful.

[00:28:41.680] – Steve
So if you carry that back, it’s the teacher’s job in the classroom.

[00:28:45.980] – Mitch
Yep.

[00:28:46.470] – Steve
There’s a curriculum, there’s standardized tests, there’s things that we have to happen here at school. And part of my job as the teacher is to protect the kids from those things. And if I move it up to administration, if I move it up to I move it up to superintendent and board, the system is gonna exist. And sometimes, hopefully, I can change and modify the system. But a lot of my time as a leader has to be spent – I need the system in order to have the school open and have the kids there. So I can’t shut down the system, but I have to do my best to have the system not serve the system instead of the people that it’s supposed to be serving.

[00:29:29.920] – Mitch
And that’s a balance. And that’s an art. And it’s complex.

[00:29:37.620] – Steve
Yeah. Mitch, you touched a little bit on AI and knowing that’s a hot topic now, you got a little bit more you wanna say about how you see AI fitting in here? How does AI help us build resourcefulness, resilience, and collaboration? And how can AI get in the way of those things happening? I’m assuming we’re gonna be dealing with the same kind of balance question.

[00:30:04.040] – Mitch
Right, yep. So I’m gonna say, I’m gonna first talk, I guess, a little bit about how it gets in the way, okay? And I think the reason it gets in the way is we have this emphasis in education on results. So we test based on, you know, test scores. And, you know, and so when we want kids to produce essays, we want kids to produce presentations, and so then we judge those presentations. And if the emphasis on education continues to be on the end products then AI will really prevent kids from learning the skills because you can always produce something faster and probably better in AI than if you did it yourself. If we can change the emphasis in schools into skills, skill development and knowledge development, and I realize that you test it based on, or you assess it based on the outcomes. But if you can build in your assessments so that they’re non-rewarding and non-punitive, and so just like if I’m playing a sport, I know I win by winning the points or I win by scoring baskets or whatever it is, but I’m really conscious of building the skills and I get good feedback like, okay, I’m not dribbling well or I’m not hitting my backhand well.

[00:31:37.770] – Mitch
Or when I’m doing dance, I’m not doing this well. Or when I’m playing notes, I’m not doing that. You know, I’m getting great feedback as I do things. And my whole mindset is I’m doing these things to develop the skills because I love doing it. And if I compete, it gives me a better chance of winning. And so with AI, we have to change the emphasis to skill development so that the kids are motivated to develop their skills. And the teachers are there to help the kids develop their skills, and the education system is there to help kids move up to become good adults, rather than where it’s become the tail wagging the dog. It’s like everything comes from the tests, and the tests determine – if you don’t get the high test score, then you get punished, or you get the high test score, then you get, you get rewarded. So in Conflict and Collaboration, we talk about really three mechanisms that we can use to go into a collaborative mode. One is strength-based feedback, one is motivational interviewing, and one is nonviolent communication. And I’m not going to go into them now.

[00:32:47.500] – Mitch
But if you’re going in, if you’re a teacher and you’re about to meet with a parent and you know that the parent is coming loaded for bear, right, you can put into AI, you know, something – “Here is the situation with the child. I’m talking with the parent. Here’s how the parent is likely to respond. I want to use strength-based feedback, motivational interviewing, and nonviolent communication despite the fact that this parent is likely to give triggering statements 3 or 4 times no matter what I do. Give me an example of how that conversation might look.” Whatever it comes back with, it’s not gonna be right or wrong, but I will guarantee you it’s gonna give you different ways of expressing things than you would’ve come up with on your own.

[00:33:35.370] – Steve
So Mitch, I think I’m at the same place you are. I’ve been using the word process where you’re using skills, and I think I want to bring that out. So if teachers have to switch their assessment and feedback to kids so that their assessment and their feedback is on the process rather than the assessment and the feedback on the finished product.

[00:34:00.420] – Mitch
100%. Well, 90%. And the reason I say 90% is it pains me to say the teachers have to do this because we always dump it on the teachers. And I think the teachers are doing – we’re all doing the best that we can. And when we come back and say, you know, teachers, you only have to do this, it makes it sound like, okay, nobody else is at fault. We have this whole system that we have to protect the kids from.

[00:34:29.790] – Steve
That’s the system. I have to protect the teachers from that system.

[00:34:33.000] – Mitch
Exactly. Exactly.

[00:34:34.160] – Steve
If I’m higher up.

[00:34:34.950] – Mitch
Yep.

[00:34:35.830] – Steve
But actually, it kind of fits my coaching approach because the process, if I’m giving feedback to the teacher, the process is important. So we can have a lesson where the kids learned a lot, but they didn’t learn the tested outcome.

[00:35:00.060] – Mitch
Yep.

[00:35:00.880] – Steve
Or the teacher learned a lot. The teacher learned a lot from a lesson that didn’t work.

[00:35:05.680] – Mitch
Yep. And teaching teachers, teaching people, to look for the gifts from things that didn’t work out rather than look for validation of I did it right or I did it wrong. So the gifts are,this is what I learned, this is what I got a chance to practice, or I’m just going to reward myself for having tried this and it didn’t work out. But still, I’m going to go for a pedicure because I tried this and I’m going to congratulate myself for trying it.

[00:35:37.150] – Steve
Well, Mitch, you’re going to have to come back on.

[00:35:40.850] – Mitch
Oh, I’d love to. I’d love to.

[00:35:42.360] – Steve
This is too much fun for me.

[00:35:46.140] – Mitch
Oh, thank you.

[00:35:47.470] – Steve
I hope the listeners can get as caught up in it as I am. But before we move on, would you, would you talk a little bit about the resources that you have available that listeners can, can follow up with and how they can go about that?

[00:36:03.310] – Mitch
Sure.

[00:36:04.120] – Steve
I only mentioned one of your books and you got two other books. How do people find out about those?

[00:36:09.860] – Mitch
Okay. So basically you can find out pretty much everything at my website, which is mindshiftingwithmitch.com. So if you go to the website, there’s two books out. One is, “The Mind Shifting: Stop Your Brain from Sabotaging Your Happiness and Success.” And then what should be the third book, but was the second one that I wrote because it seems to be this time of divisiveness, but it’s, “Mind Shifting: Conflict and Collaboration,” is volume 3 of a 3-part series. And this summer I’m going to start working on volume 2, which is the one on resilience. And I teach 3 courses. I’d love to get those courses accredited in more states so more teachers can take them. Those courses are free. And right now they’re, if you in New York State, if you go to New York State Teacher Center, you can look up MindShifting. If you’re in the state of Washington and you go to PDEnroller and you look up MindShifting, you can find the courses there. So I’d love to be in more states. And then also, again, so my mission is to get more people who are thinking this way. And so outside of the books and outside of the courses, I have a weekly newsletter which people can see on the website, but I also am putting together conversation guides so we can get these conversations going within schools and within PLCs and within districts.

[00:37:32.180] – Mitch
And the first one, the link will be on the show notes, but it’s how do you lead a discussion about why we react instead of respond. So you put together your PLC, you put together the school, and it’s understanding the mechanisms within the brain that get us to react instead of respond. It’s a discussion of how these things apply and what happens in schools with the administrators, with the teachers, with the counselors, with the kids, why each one of these different constituencies is reacting instead of responding. And then start discussing, well, what are some of the things that we can do so that we’re more likely to respond? So these discussion will be however long you wanna make them, but they’re designed to be 45 to 60 minutes. And the first one is out. They will always be free. And the link to the first one will be in the show notes on why we react instead of respond.

[00:38:28.910] – Steve
Thanks so much, Mitch. I know listeners are gonna wanna follow up with that. And as I said, I will be following you.

[00:38:37.080] – Mitch
Okay.

[00:38:37.400] – Steve
And I’ll be back to you to, schedule a return. And if something sparks you that, man, Steve and I ought to talk about this, feel free to reach out to me before I reach out to you. Yeah, thanks a lot, Mitch.

[00:38:53.330] – Mitch
Okay, thanks, Steve.

[00:38:56.450] – Steve [Outro]
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn @SteveBarkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs blogs at barkleypd.com.

I have been a long-time promoter of engaging students in real-life (project-based) opportunities. That’s driven from my own experiences as a 4-H participant in my elementary and high school years and having observed teachers and students tackling powerful learning through doing live event projects. Those experiences generated my interest to learn more when I was introduced to The Society of Childhood Entrepreneurs. Leah Ellis shares how even young elementary students can learn important life skills as entrepreneurs.

Visit The Society of Childhood Entrepreneurs website here. 

Find Leah’s book, “Sparks to Stars: The Story of Astra & Zeke” here.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.300] – Steve [Intro]
Hello and welcome to Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud. Together, we’ll explore ways to support teacher growth, elevate your coaching practice, and boost student success. Each week, I’ll share my own insights as well as conversations with inspiring guests to help you lead with confidence. Thanks for listening.

[00:00:30.000] – Steve
Powerful learning through entrepreneurial opportunities. I’ve been a long-time promoter of engaging students in real-life, project-based opportunities. That’s driven from my own experience as a 4-H participant in my elementary and high school years, and having observed teachers and students tackle powerful learning through doing projects. I’ve recorded a number of podcast with teachers and students who tackled solving real problems, such as the fourth-graders who designed their playground so that it was accessible to students in wheelchairs. They also held events all year long to generate the funds for the design to be implemented. Those experiences generated my interest to learn more when I was introduced to an article about the Society of Childhood Entrepreneurs. Joining our podcast today is the founder of the Society of Childhood Entrepreneurs, Leah Ellis. Leah an experienced early childhood and elementary educator and the mother of four children. Welcome, Leah.

[00:01:37.280] – Leah
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:39.240] – Steve
Thank you so much for joining us. Why don’t we just jump in for a starter to work from then. Give us a little description of the Society of Childhood entrepreneurs.

[00:01:50.720] – Leah
It’s a Society of Child Entrepreneurs. We teach kids how to start and run their own businesses. But it’s not just those lemonade stands that you’re used to. I have kids that graphic designers, 3D printers. They’re really kids who have an idea and the tools to implement it. Then I teach them the skills to make sure they implement it well and it can be sustainable as they get older.

[00:02:13.520] – Steve
What led to your initial focus on students as entrepreneurs?

[00:02:18.480] – Leah
My daughter – it’s a little bit of a long story, so bear with me.

[00:02:22.920] – Steve
Go ahead. We got time.

[00:02:24.800] – Leah
Before COVID, I ran an in-home daycare, and I taught essentially an all girls engineering curriculum because that’s just how our program had fallen together. I loved it, and I loved teaching STEM to little girls and pushing these girls outside of the traditional boundaries of what they expected little girls to learn. Yes, our water bottle Rockets had lots of glitter, but they still learned about propulsion, and it was amazing. But then my house flooded, and I had to move into a hotel. You cannot run an in-home daycare out of a hotel room, so we temporarily shut down our daycare. Unfortunately, our grand reopening was March 17th, 2020. At the time, we lived in Los Angeles County, and that is the exact day that they issued the stay at home order. So we never got to reopen. And then the city that we lived in opened a free for essential workers’ childcare within walking distance of my house. So then even my tiny glimmer of hope that maybe we’ll get the essential workers went away because they had a free option less than a mile from me. That meant I needed to pivot and figure out something else to do.

[00:03:31.620] – Leah
Since I’m reasonably entrepreneurial, my husband and I had decided to start a financial coaching company together. I would watch small business trading videos and entrepreneur mom stuff, videos like that on the big TV in our living room because my husband was deployed and I was home alone with an 18-month-old and a four-year-old. Then, maybe April, May, my four-year-old looked at me and said, “Mom, I want to start a business, too.” Of course, my initial gut reaction – “Four-year-olds can’t start businesses. No.” Then she did that one word that is the top of every four-year-old’s vocabulary, that they all…it’s their immediate reaction to everything, “but why?” I had no good answer for why she couldn’t start a business. And we were trapped at home anyway. So what was the risk of experimentation? It was going to be, at the very least, a learning opportunity for her. So we sat down and we brainstormed, and she went even into some Facebook groups and had voting and polls on what name she was going to select with her business and everything. And she finally settled on, Custom Drip Art from Melody Paints. After the world reopened for COVID, Melody ended up having some opportunities to be a featured artist for some city art shows.

[00:04:45.260] – Leah
She continued doing her outreach. We were invited to our first children’s business fair, which she loved. Then we left California and we moved back home to Kansas, and I hosted a children’s business fair as an opportunity to get connected with some of the other people who were doing similar things with their kids. When I finished it, I was not nearly as satisfied as I had been at the first Children’s Business Fair because as the organizer, I realized all the things that we weren’t doing. Because we had to put on this beautiful event, the kids had all made tons of money, sold amazing things, and then they left, and there was no more learning. And that, as somebody who takes child development and education so seriously, really frustrated me because we had opened this wide door of excitement and then not used it. We created the Society of Child Entrepreneurs to take that big excitement of their first fair and then build an entire educational program around it so that they’re actually learning sustainable entrepreneurship, financial literacy, leadership skills, confidence, all of those skills that they learn as entrepreneurs while they’re still kids.

[00:05:55.700] – Steve
Could you tell us some of the projects that students have taken on as their business?

[00:06:02.860] – Leah
My favorite one is, I actually have a girl who does the plushies that she crochets, and they are so soft and so beautiful. They look amazing. I looked at her and I was like, “How do you make these? How long does this take?” She was like, “Oh, it takes an hour and a half.” I was like, “Wait, what?” I have another girl who does custom pens. I really love her pens. I have one in my desk that says, “She is fearless.” We have two young gentlemen who run 3D printing companies. I have another boy who is an avid reader and very frustrated that at 13 years old, his classmates aren’t avid readers anymore. We all know that around fourth grade, that reading for pleasure drops off. But he still really loves reading, and he wants his classmates to read with him. So he created this business called Troy’s Top 10. And if you tell him a genre that you like, he will give you books in your recommended genre that he would recommend you read next. That way, he can keep his classmates reading because they’re not reading boring books. He’s already identified the books that they’re going to be interested in.

[00:07:14.700] – Steve
Very cool.

[00:07:15.740] – Leah
Yeah, he’s a future educator. He just doesn’t know it yet.

[00:07:20.180] – Steve
[laughter] There’s a term that I use in my work with teachers that I call, “live event learning.” I use that term to describe students working on projects where there’s a real consequence for the choices that they make. There’s also some unknowns that are present. I think those are both key elements to the learning. I think it’s why extracurricular activities in schools are so often a great learning experience for students. It seems that all applies to your entrepreneurial focus.

[00:08:00.160] – Leah
Oh, absolutely. I mean, we literally put on live events open to the public where these kids have to put on their customer service hats and talk to strangers. And we don’t know how many people are going to show up. We don’t know who’s going to show up. We don’t know what they’re going to say. I had one guy tell me at a renaissance festival that he would not support our organization because he did not support child labor.

[00:08:23.227] – Steve
[laughter]

[00:08:23.560] – Leah
And the kids were like, What? I had to be like, I don’t think you understand our program. But it was a great opportunity for the kids to be like, no, this is not child labor. This is mine, and I want to do it. It’s always fun because we never know what we’re going to hear at an event, and the kids have to learn how to pivot, how to think on their feet, how to communicate.

[00:08:49.880] – Steve
Real life.

[00:08:50.500] – Leah
How not to laugh at grownups who say we don’t support child labor.

[00:08:54.380] – Steve
Yeah. I read on your website that the experience is build learners’ confidence, communication skills, and resilience as just a few of the positive traits that you mentioned. Would you expand on that a little?

[00:09:09.280] – Leah
Right. If we think about entrepreneurship as an adult, you’re the face of your company, which means you have to have great communication skills because you have to be able to identify what your company does and explain it to other people in a way that they understand. You have to have confidence to know that you’re describing it in the right way and that you are the right person to do that job. And then you have to be resilient enough to know that some days there are going to be bad sales days and you keep going anyway. All of those things still apply to my kids when they learn. One of the biggest opportunities for one of our kids to learn resilience. Actually, it’s a little bit of a sad story. We had what we thought was going to be an amazing market set up. Our city does a fall festival, and we bring in 10,000 to 15,000 people from the neighboring big city to our small town in two days. It’s a massive event. I had gotten the opportunity for our kids to be able to have booths at the event. It was free.

[00:10:09.400] – Leah
It was just for our members. We were anticipating it was going to be the biggest thing that had ever happened for our little baby organization. But at the last minute, the city moved all of the adult vendors to a different location, which meant the area where our kids were was crickets because there were no vendors around us. We were just in this empty building by ourselves. The unfortunate part of all of it was it also took place on my daughter’s 10th birthday. So on my daughter’s 10th birthday, she woke up that morning prepared to make hundreds of dollars, talk to thousands of people, and just have a blast selling her business. And over the course of the day, she probably saw three people and got four or five pity sales. And she obviously was incredibly disappointed at the end of the day. That was her birthday, and it had not gone the way she wanted it to. Then we had another fair the following month, and she came home and she was like, “okay, so these are the steps I want to take to make sure that the November fair goes better than the October fair did.”

[00:11:12.080] – Leah
How easy would a 10 years old to have been like, “That sucked. I’m never doing business again.” She’s learning that resilience of, okay, sometimes things don’t work. What do we do to make it go better next time? The November fair was a little bit better, and she did make some more sales.

[00:11:28.360] – Steve
Well, you can tell your daughter that you met a gentleman who got on an airplane in New Jersey and flew to Washington, DC, and spent a small fortune to speak at a conference, and no one came to his session. [laughter]

[00:11:50.580] – Steve
I know her entrepreneurial pain and learning from that.

[00:11:57.700] – Leah
Right. What entrepreneur doesn’t know the experience of a bad event or a bad sales day. It’s part of saying, this is a part of life. Even if you’re not an entrepreneur, there’s going to be bad days in whatever you’re doing and that resilience to be able to say, what do I have ownership that I can fix to make it better? It’s not even just the resilience, but also that problem solving skills and that locus of control of what do I manage.

[00:12:26.680] – Steve
I earlier recorded a podcast with the authors of a book called, “Leaders of the Class.” They focus on schools developing leadership skills for all students. Their focus was high school and traditionally, there’s a select group of students who go through high school learning leadership skills. Their focus was on our need to greatly increase that opportunity. It strikes me that entrepreneurial approach can create a lot of those similar opportunities for kids.

[00:13:06.380] – Leah
Right. Especially because as an entrepreneur, not only are you learning to lead your business, but part of our curriculum teaches social entrepreneurship and how as an entrepreneur, you have the opportunity, and I would even say the obligation, to work on making your community a better place. In one of our books that is yet to be published, the main characters help a girl identify a field in their city – we have all those fields, and it’s like an empty field in between buildings, and it’s full of plastic bags. So how to take that field and turn it into something that the community can use. And this young entrepreneur leads the project to turn it into a community garden in a playground. Entrepreneurs have the opportunity to do those things because we already have outreach in our community. People already know us as the person who does that business. So they already understand the report. They’ve already built some relationship. They want to help us with other projects.

[00:14:00.000] – Steve
Very cool. I’m wondering how you would envision teachers making entrepreneurial opportunities for students. I know some teachers do a thing that they call a genius hour, where it gives kids a freedom and autonomy to tackle anything they want. As I was thinking about the work that you’re doing, I could envision an entrepreneurial hour a couple of times a week, falling into the schedule where kids could engage in their entrepreneurial venture.

[00:14:40.480] – Leah
Absolutely. In fact, I cheated a little bit on this one because I’m writing a curriculum. So the best way to put it in your classroom is wait 24 months for me to publish the rest of what I’ve written and then just put my curriculum in your classroom. But no, really, it’s all about just starting to ask questions and let the kids build the solutions. Tell the kids, we have this problem, how can business solve it? And then letting them slowly build businesses that solve those problems that they see in their community. And then taking those to the public and collecting money and being very proud of themselves for earning their own money. With our curriculum, it starts out very simply with, what is an entrepreneur and what does an entrepreneur do? Then by the end of the school year, they actually put on their first market where they’re selling the product that they’ve invented that school year.

[00:15:26.960] – Steve
Very cool. What’s the best way for a listener to find out more about your Society for Childhood Entrepreneurs and follow up with you personally on some questions and follow that curriculum you’re working on and the books you’re working on?

[00:15:43.600] – Leah
Our website is is soceict.org – if you follow on that, I post stuff on our blog. Then our Facebook page, the Society of Child Entrepreneurs, I post regularly in there on what the kids are doing and what’s going on. Those are the two places that you’ll catch on the quickest when new things arrive. Then my email address is just leah@soceict.org. You can always email me and be like, I need to know more. Then, this is new – I didn’t tell you about this Last time we talked because it wasn’t a thing yet. But the first Astra and Zeke book is now on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. You can actually buy the first book in the series and at least meet the characters.

[00:16:25.960] – Steve
Tell us a little bit about that book.

[00:16:28.360] – Leah
Astra and Zeke the mascots that I created for the Society of Child Entrepreneurs. One thing that we talk about when we’re the Society of Child Entrepreneurs, it can’t just be adults telling them what to do because that’s just bossing them around, which is what we’re trying to avoid. So I created Astra and Zeke, 10 and 12-year-old business coaches who work together to teach entrepreneurship to kids. They’re the staple of our curriculum. They’re the staple of most of our programming. And so this first book is the story of who they are, how they meet, and the origin of their business coaching company, “From Sparks to Stars.”

[00:17:05.340] – Steve
Well, terrific. We’ll put the links to those things in the lead-in to this podcast, make it easy for folks to find.

[00:17:12.160] – Leah
Also, I got incredibly lucky. I have the best illustrator, so the book is just beautiful.

[00:17:17.500] – Steve
Terrific. Terrific. Thanks so much for joining us.

[00:17:20.820] – Leah
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:17:24.060] – Steve [Outro]
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

Angie Freese, author of Meant for More: Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection, explores her belief in educators’ potential. She supports educators to create classrooms where students can be brave, assured, and confident in their learning pathway. In this podcast she highlights authenticity, connection, curiosity, voice, resilience, and grace.

Find Angie’s book, Meant for More here.

Email Angie:  angie@meantformorementum.com

Connect with Angie on LinkedIn.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.210] – Steve [Intro]

Hello, and welcome to the Teacher Edition of Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud. Teaching is a complex and rewarding journey, and I’m always eager to explore the many ways teachers engage students in their learning. This podcast is dedicated to supporting you, the teacher, as you inspire and guide your students. Thanks for joining me. I’m excited you’re here.

[00:00:29.880] – Steve

Classrooms built on dignity, authenticity, and connection. I’m excited to have Angie Freese join our podcast today. Her experiences as a classroom teacher, building and district-level administrator, and as a parent have led to her recent book, “Meant for More.” Angie has worked with countless educators in the areas of assessment, RTI, and inclusive practices. She focuses on empowering educators to gain sustainable growth and performance for all students. Welcome, Angie.

[00:01:11.370] – Angie

Thank you, Steve. Happy to be here today.

[00:01:13.960] – Steve

Angie, as you spent time in building administrative positions and district-level roles, what insights emerged and joined those experiences that you had previously built from your teaching experiences?

[00:01:29.250] – Angie

One of the most important things I’ve learned over the last few years is that there are brilliant people stuck in archaic systems. Within our organizations, we either have the knowledge and skills and mindsets that we need to pursue excellence with each other and our students, or we know where to access learning that will get us there. So the brilliance is in the space already. Oftentimes, however, I’m invited into schools or districts because someone has identified something that is wrong. And despite that awareness, interestingly enough, in the very systems that would benefit most from creativity and innovation, the boundaries of those systems are tighter and more rigid, and that paralysis is real. And so oftentimes people feel stuck or confused or exhausted so we can’t wonder why people are leaving our profession when we’re not intentionally about how we support people to truly feel connected to the mission and give them the tools they need to be successful.

[00:02:38.280] – Steve

I’m almost hearing unlocking potential of teachers that – it’s there. And It’s been stymied, perhaps, and you work to unlock it?

[00:02:50.350] – Angie

I do my best. And one of the things that I offer in these learning spaces is that we are a fierce and bold and brave cohort as educators. We are poised and ready to be of service to the students and families that they serve. And my opportunity and my partnership with folks is truly to be able to facilitate the necessary space to invite in some refreshed thinking, ideas, and perhaps even momentum to help our amazing educator cohort just reclaim the dignity in our profession, to be fair, to mobilize our shared efforts, to actually realize what seems to be this elusive vision of creating access and opportunity and growth for each and every learner.

[00:03:46.140] – Steve

Well, there’s a quote in your book that caught my attention, so I wanted to ask you to expand on it a little bit. You wrote, “Remember, you have permission to be exactly where you are. My ask is that you just not be complacent staying there.”

[00:04:05.280] – Angie

Yeah. Well, my first assumption, always, is that people are doing the best they can with the information and the resources that they have. But if we still aren’t getting the results that we want, we must choose to learn and to move and to support each other in that move forward. So the permission piece comes from, of course, we’re in the space that we’re in because of the learning and the experiences and the opportunities and the conversations that we’ve had. But if we’re still not feeling like we’re getting the results that we desire, we have to choose. And I’m real intentional in that word about choice. We have to choose to rise to this level of conversation and awareness awareness and knowledge access so that we can truly do the things that we were meant to do.

[00:05:07.810] – Steve

In your book, “Meant for More: Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection,” you share six key focus points. I’m wondering if we could take those one at a time and give us a little more detail around each one. The first one you identify is embracing authenticity.

[00:05:31.870] – Angie

Yeah, this idea really goes beyond the concept of, well, just be yourself, as maybe a foundational definition for authenticity, and even goes deeper beyond the performative actions of posting signs that say everyone belongs here, but not really having spaces and systems that honor that. So we want to go deeper than the surface level of what authenticity may or may not mean to people. And in the meant for more classroom, we really define this in a number of ways. Each chapter within the book is structured to invite the reader to first examine their own practices and then prepare their team, perhaps, to get ready, and then the students to get ready and it closes with the infrastructure pieces that might be required to navigate this meant for more element and to pursue one next step forward in this work. And so when it comes to authenticity, the reason that I choose to start with self and the reason that this element was specifically chosen for the first one for my reader to explore is because everything else is fundamental to us being able to own our own identity. When we’re comfortable with ourselves and who we are and what we offer, we are less afraid of who someone else might be and how they choose to show up in a space.

[00:07:09.050] – Angie

And the reason that’s important is because it allows us to then be intentionally inclusive. So once you’ve taken care of you, then you understand that intentional inclusivity is truly an opportunity to model that authenticity, to model that respect, and even to express dignity for other people.

[00:07:31.610] – Steve

Sounding to me like that walks right into the second one. I’m building a plan here. It’s the second one of fostering connections.

[00:07:42.930] – Angie

Yes. So this second second piece of fostering connection really intends to help the reader honor and validate people’s lived experiences, and also validate their responses to their circumstances that they might be in. So again, just like the previous chapter, we’re moving past and we’re moving deeper through the performative actions to know about someone rather than just know of someone. And so when we can, again, start with ourselves and empower ourselves to be in a position where our classrooms and schools and districts are truly fostering connection, there’s three key elements here that we consider. The first is really prioritizing advertising students over the content. And so the COVID-19 pandemic, for example, grossly underestimated the impact of missing connections and relationships for our students and our adults, for that matter. And so we really know now more than ever how we are meant to be in relation with each other. So the performative action might be that we begin the year with great opportunities to build community and connection and foster relationships. But the encouragement in the chapter is to continue to keep nurturing those relationships all year long and to keep monitoring and reflecting on our own practices as adults to make sure that those spaces are clear in the classroom.

[00:09:14.950] – Angie

The second component of this chapter is really for us as educators to create this investment in who our learners are as people, not just as students. And so as an example, even when we give feedback to learners, or when we connect with folks, so often we might give people feedback in an attempt to connect with them that says, “oh, good job” or “nice work.” Actually, this just reminds me of a quick parenting story – but I was playing tennis with my daughter a couple of weeks ago, and she humbled me in the ways that teenagers are often capable of. But we were volleying back and forth, and I was really proud of how she was getting the ball back, and she’s really leveraging some power. Anyway, to make a long story endless here, she was volleying and I kept saying, “Nice. Oh, that’s great. Good work.” And she finally stopped midpoint and said, “Mom, what is nice about what I’m doing?” She knew it was good. So then I had to go in and say, “oh, well, I really like how you are getting set. You’re keeping balance. You’ve got your racket face open. And I can’t always see the volley coming, but I know it’s going to be a good one based on how I hear that sound off the racket.”

[00:10:45.610] – Angie

And so, again, she just provided me with this humbling experience.

[00:10:51.120] – Steve

She gave you some great coaching.

[00:10:53.250] – Angie

And she sure did. But I think about that story in this because I also think that we foster connection by being true with kids. The use of the phrase, “real talk” in the subtitle of my book was quite intentional. We have to be open and honest and direct, and we can be kind and compassionate as we do so. But we also just want to be clear about what are we doing, what are we saying? What are we looking for that really helps to foster this environment where a connection can be made? And then we can continue to go deeper with that feedback that feeds the work forward. Because sometimes kids, just the third piece here that I want to honor in this chapter is really just that kids, we need to hear what students have to share. Sometimes they just need someone to talk at rather than talk to. And so I think it’s just reflective for us to notice which learner do we have a connection with. To which kids are we giving nicknames and joking around with, and for which other kids maybe have we not yet made that connection? What percentage of our time are we spending with which type of learner?

[00:12:08.180] – Angie

And I think those are just really important questions to ask ourselves and to create these nurturing and inclusive environments.

[00:12:14.610] – Steve

Well, take us to the third one, cultivating curiosity.

[00:12:18.170] – Angie

Sure. Absolutely. This opportunity to cultivate curiosity in the classroom comes from being able to honor and dignify student inquiry through that connection and that relevance that we’ve spoken about previously. When we create connection to content and we inspire curiosity, it’s just a natural, but it’s also a respectful and sustainable way to heighten learner engagement as well as promote academic growth and achievement with kids. So when we’re modeling the generation of new ideas, when we’re modeling risk-taking, when we’re asking kids to consider how to solve problems in a more creative way, this is the real opportunity to nurture inquiry and really overcome this antiquated way, and perhaps even unlearn this idea of teaching that school is the place where the teacher tells and the kids listen. And I know that we’ve had some research over the last few decades, and we’ve had great models models in our schools and of maybe pockets of excellence in our schools where certain teachers are pursuing this idea of curiosity, but we also know that when it comes to the skills that kids need in our community and even the global community. There was some research I discovered in my manuscript or in preparing to write the manuscript that the World Economic Forum publishes their list of skills that will best contribute to a global community.

[00:14:03.220] – Angie

And they’ve had to publish it every two years since 2016 because of the nature of how quickly adaptability and flexibility and innovation and creativity are becoming just absolutely essential competencies for our learners. So this idea of curiosity really wants to honor that. And it couples with the meant for more classroom idea because we want to create spaces where kids feel safe to make mistakes, and they don’t fear failure.

[00:14:33.820] – Steve

I’m sensing the teachers’ need to cultivate one’s own curiosity is a critical component.

[00:14:43.140] – Angie

You are absolutely right with that piece. Instead of even, what are our own passions? What are our own interests? As educators, we are relentless in pursuit of student performance and student growth. And sometimes that comes at the cost of nurturing our own curiosities, our own passions, our own hobbies. What do we like to do in our time outside of the classroom? And how do those inquiries and those curiosities create more inclusive, authentic spaces in the classroom?

[00:15:25.190] – Steve

How about the next one, empowering voice?

[00:15:30.160] – Angie

Sure. The empowering voice chapter really is focused on intentionally developing skills in which kids and adults learn to use their voice for both advocacy and to represent meaningful change. So we want kids to be both equally aware of their voice and how to use it, as well as being being given moments in which to do so. So it’s one thing in the classroom to teach here’s how to advocate, here’s how to be a change agent, here’s how to communicate your needs. But we also want to be reflective to consider how often kids actually have an opportunity to do so or when they do, let us know what their needs are or advocate for change. If we stifle their voice because the system isn’t designed to accept it, we get in this space of real dissonance intentions. So by design, the meant for more classroom ensures kids see themselves in the learning environment and the activities we empower voice by partnering with students to construct or co-construct, rather, those learning experiences. And we also create spaces where we can foster trust and normalized risk-taking so that we really, truly can that are ways to notice the power dynamics in our classrooms, create opportunities to invite kids to be partners with us, and even when it comes to decision making, to make sure that kids understand what decision should I make as the teacher?

[00:17:15.630] – Angie

What decision should you make as the student? What decisions perhaps could we make together to create this necessary space where we feel like our voices matter?

[00:17:25.880] – Steve

So that is all going to be supported then by the next chapter, Nurturing Resilience.

[00:17:31.470] – Angie

It’s almost like there was a plan…[laughter]

[00:17:34.270] – Steve

Yeah, really. [laughter]

[00:17:35.160] – Angie

I appreciate your recognition of that.

[00:17:41.520] – Steve

It’s great to hear you as you lay it out. Somehow I didn’t catch that closely enough earlier, but it really does fall together.

[00:17:50.790] – Angie

Well, this next chapter on nurturing resilience, I could spend a podcast or five talking about, and I will keep it to some high-level pieces here. I think that as fierce and bold and brave of a cohort as we are as teachers and educators, we are continuing to experience spaces where we’re asked to do more with less, and we have to really consider how our current feelings and emotions about our work are connected to the infrastructure in which we’re engaging. So there’s really two sides this coin. There’s many sides to the coin, let’s be fair, but two sides to consider today. One side of the coin is this exhaustion and just complete burnout that members of our profession are feeling, and it’s happening so fast that we can’t catch up because you may feel this way, and you may not know why. So my inquiry here to teachers that I work with and principals and leaders alike is, if we’re feeling this way, to what degree do we have competing priorities on our campus? To what degree do we have limited collaboration and professional learning experiences to grow our skill sets and mindsets? To what degree do we have inconsistent or untimely communication about initiatives or practices or decisions that are coming up?

[00:19:22.850] – Angie

And then is there an inequity in the distribution of resources? And is it a combination of those things that are contributing to this exhaustion and this burnout? And then on the other side of the coin, we have teachers who feel fully empowered, and they feel trusted, and they feel like they’re valued members of their school community. And oftentimes, the patterns in the research indicate that’s because, well, there’s dedicated time to develop relationships. There’s a direct and timely and honest communication that also includes feedback and celebration as a regular part of how we’re engaging in our work. And decisions are made that keep kids at the center and truly your focus on the mission. But I think perhaps the most interesting question and perhaps even the most fervent writing moment for me in this chapter was the realization of this, is that we really have to ask ourselves, why should I or my students be asked by the system to work more and to fight harder against said acts when the system unrealistically demand so much of me in the first place? And that is just the real talk that we have to consider as we continue to revitalize and rejuvenate the dignity of our profession.

[00:20:48.550] – Steve

So to close this out then – Giving Grace.

[00:20:52.130] – Angie

Yes. Just as authenticity was the first chapter and had to be the first chapter, Giving Grace had to be the last chapter. After we stirred some things up in Chapter 6 with nurturing resilience and thinking about how to do that for both adults and kids, I wanted to leave the reader with this idea of how we connect the ideas of forgiveness and acceptance with grace. So when we think about this, I mean, I’m a human being, you’re a human being, which means that we will make mistakes. We will we’ll say things we don’t mean, we will forget something important. We’ll hurt someone’s feelings, and we’re just not going to win at all of the things, even most of the time. So how do we reset our minds and recalibrate our experiences to really get into this cadence of speaking to ourselves with kindness, giving ourselves permission to be who we making sure that we give ourselves the same grace that we so freely give to others, and perhaps most importantly, to set time for ourselves on the calendar. I have Post-it notes by my bed to free my mind of things that come up at 3:00 in the morning.

[00:22:18.910] – Angie

I give myself self-care Saturdays when I can. I’m up early to chase a sunrise on a hike or something. But I think the grace part really comes from the idea that there’s only one of me and there’s only one of you. So we have to be kind to that person because we’re truly meant for more.

[00:22:42.480] – Steve

Well, I’m going to go back to the quote I pulled from your book about it’s someplace that I want to be in the future that I’m not now. So if I were a teacher looking through your six items that you just went over with us, and I decided there was an area that I wanted to move ahead with, how would I go about starting?

[00:23:05.380] – Angie

Well, I think the most important part of this work is to start with yourself and start with your strengths. So often we are asked to respond to the things that we’re not doing very well or that we might need to learn more about. But if we haven’t first acknowledged what we’re already good at, where we’re already feeling competent and confident, where we already are demonstrating that resilience, if we don’t first honor those things, then we lose sight of the foundation that we can stand on. So when we do hit a step back, when we inevitably have to take a step backward, we come back to this foundation that we’ve explored ourselves and that we embrace those strengths, we identify those strengths, we nurture those strengths so that then we can take one step forward, whatever that might be. So the suggestion to teachers really is start with yourself and start with your strengths. And then once you notice those things and you normalize speaking to yourself with kindness about what’s good and what you do well, then you can keep nurturing that into existence.

[00:24:24.850] – Steve

Well, thank you so much, Angie. And I’m wondering, what’s the best way that listeners could find out more about your book and the various projects that you’ve got ongoing?

[00:24:38.290] – Angie

Sure. Well, the book is accessible through the SolutionTree website. You can also find it on Barnes & Noble and Amazon. Again, the title of the book is “Meant for More: Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection.” You can find me on Instagram @meantformorementum, and also on LinkedIn. It would be a great way to connect with me. Just send me a message. I’d love to connect with you, learn what you’re up to, learn what’s working in your system, why it’s working, and how we can keep going from there.

[00:25:17.610] – Steve

Well, thank you so much. We’ll be sure to put some of those links into the end of the podcast to make it easy for folks to find.

[00:25:25.930] – Angie

Great. Thanks so much, Steve.

[00:25:27.750] – Steve

Have a great day.

[00:25:28.950] – Angie

You, too.

[00:25:32.050] – Steve [Outro]

Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Steve Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

Does thinking longer term as we plan for the next school year allow teachers to focus on building student resilience over a push to catch up on academic content under some definition of learning loss? How do instructional coaches and leaders support teachers in deciding upon the most important student experiences as they return to classrooms? What observational evidence indicates desired progress?

Sam Chaltain’s blog “New Rules for New Schools” describes our need to change our relationship with time— focusing less on short-term goals. He shares a theme from Roman Krznaric’s book, The Good Ancestor. “We have to think long— something we humans can do, just not very well. It’s hard to think long when the world around us is driven by short-term dopamine-driven feedback loops.” Krznaric illustrates thinking with a marshmallow brain (remember the experiments with 3 year- olds and delayed gratification) and the acorn brain (think acorn to tree)

This two-minute video gives a great visual explanation.

Resilience is described as the ability to bounce back from adversity. It is an important skill for coping with life’s inevitable obstacles and a key ingredient to success. Learning to bounce back and to bounce forward. I am currently working with a school that will have students returning to classroom learning for the first time in 15 months as they engage in a summer school program. How important would it be to invest in building students’ resilience during this six-week program? Is a short-term goal of increasing an academic score an easier focus? Of course, we can provide opportunities to create growth in both areas, but resilience is not a short-term measurement.

Adeyemi Stembridge, writing in Education Week, states,
“If the goal in our understanding of resilience is to be able to better position ourselves as more effective support to students, then we must think carefully about the nature and value of authentic, trusting relationships in school. Trust isn’t merely a commodity shared between two or more people. I am also referring to how students come into trusting relationships with the idea of school and their identities therein. We are all more likely to remain committed to a task when some part of our identity is invested in the space and/or task. In this regard, I encourage teachers to use strategies that allow students to see themselves as the agents of success in their own lives.”

I love that phrase, “a trusting relationship with the idea of school”. Definitely the post-pandemic return to the classroom is a time for that longer-term, desired focus, that will support students’ continuous success. What would you imagine observing in teacher and student actions that would indicate experiences likely to build resilience? What does this look and sound like? These are important conversations. Consider the following elements from the Reachout.com website:

Create safe and supportive learning environments – “Being able to learn from mistakes and challenges in a place where they feel supported and encouraged will build their confidence, self-belief, and resilience.” A longer-term focus makes it easier for the teacher to build safety for students to learn in trial and error and from mistakes. Short-term, especially high-stakes assessments, interfere with building confidence and self-belief.

Celebrate student progress, not just success– “When it comes to building resilience, it really is all about the journey and not just the destination! When we only celebrate the wins, we instill a belief that the only thing that matters is success.”

Stembridge illustrated a great example of this in his writing. He suggested taking a snapshot of an engaged student—thinking, doing, talking, listening. He then presents the photo to the student at another time as asks, ”Can you tell me what was happening in this picture?” This dialogue allows the teacher to draw attention to the student’s actions or choices that drive success. I really think this is a brilliant strategy. I have had physical education teachers describe how capturing a student’s move or positioning visually increases understanding of the desired behavior and its impact. I can imagine the same power with students’ learning engagement behaviors.

Provide opportunities for goal setting and debriefing– Creating environments where students feel confident to discuss what they want to achieve and their strategies for doing it is important in helping them to build resilience. Debriefing is very important for students to gain understanding and empowerment in the learning process. Reflection provides support for staying with or modifying the current actions: an important decision. This can be difficult because very often our initial actions don’t show progress. (We have all experienced this when dieting) Here is a podcast that explores the connection between goalsetting and debriefing.

Develop a sense of belonging within the school community– “Research shows that a great way to build resilience in young people is to help them feel a part of something bigger than themselves. Encourage your students to engage with the school and community beyond their social groups by volunteering at events, mentoring younger students, or participating in whole-school events.” Many problem-based learning activities create such opportunities. (Here is a podcast that illustrates students engaging with the school community)

Building schools that are resilient, will require school leaders who build the same “trusting relationships with the idea of school” with the staff. It does require a longer rather than short-time focus.

Photo by Allison Shelley/The Verbatim Agency for EDUimages

How might our thinking long-term vs. short-term impact the decisions we make as we jump back into teaching and learning in classrooms? What would an observer in your classroom, focused on students and teacher, see and hear that indicates resilience is like to be increasing? Steve shares a strategy to assist in drawing your students into an empowering conversation about how they impact their own success.

Krznaric – The Good Ancestor 
Adeyemi Stembridge on Resilience.

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Educator and children’s author, Jeff Kubiak, identifies how we as teachers can focus on empowering students with stories of failure, success, and resilience. Thoughts and resources for random acts of kindness are explored.

Find Jeff’s books & resources here.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!