
Sari Factor, the Vice Chair and Chief Strategy Officer at Imagine Learning, explores the intersection of curriculum, technology, and people. These questions are explored:
- What makes a curriculum high quality?
- How can technology best support the teaching and learning process?
- What role might AI play in extending this intersection?
- How should schools be considering the questions around screen time?
- What role do instructional coaches and school leaders have in supporting high quality learning?
Visit the Imagine Learning website here.
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Podcast Transcript:
[00:00:00.340] – Steve [Intro]
Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.
[00:00:30.130] – Steve
Working at the intersection of curriculum, technology, and people to deliver learning outcomes. Our podcast guest today is Sari Factor, the Vice Chair and Chief Strategy Officer at Imagine Learning, an education company that partners with schools and districts to provide digital curriculum and instructional supports. They focus on helping educators personalize learning and expand access so teachers can best meet the strengths and the needs of all learners. In an earlier conversation with Sari, she highlighted the intersection among curricula, technology, and people. I’ve asked her to explore that intersection with us today. Welcome, Sari.
[00:01:21.100] – Sari
Thanks, Steve. Good to be with you.
[00:01:23.910] – Steve
I’m wondering if you’d start – tell us a little bit about your background that’s led to the work you’re doing today with Imagine Learning.
[00:01:33.780] – Sari
Sure. Well, I started as a middle school math teacher. Very short period of time, my first assignment was to teach summer school. To all the 7th grade kids who’d failed 7th grade math. What an assignment for a newbie, right? [laughter]
[00:01:51.370] – Steve
[laughter] You couldn’t write a better one, I’ll tell you.
[00:01:54.760] – Sari
Yeah, the challenge was to get them ready for 8th grade math in 6 weeks, 3 hours a day. I had 9 little boys. I had no test data. I had no information about them. They gave me no curriculum materials. It was me and these 9 little boys. I often say, for me, what really helped me ground myself around the challenges of teaching in all kinds of circumstances, that being a very bad one, but I know a lot of people have been in really difficult situations and dealt a difficult hand of cards that you have to figure out a way through. And so it gives me great compassion for teachers. I immediately moved into the world of publishing and curriculum development, and over time got experience in using technology to help teachers and learners, and really bring it all together through a great 40-plus year career in just that. Imagine Learning supports educators with curriculum and learning solutions designed to create learning experiences that drive better student outcomes. Fundamentally, that’s what we’re trying to do. And we know that we can’t do it ourselves. We have to work through teachers, through school building level leaders, administrators, who are applying the materials that we develop and deliver into the schools, school environments.
[00:03:21.380] – Sari
So that’s kind of the arc. But that first experience really caused me to think deeply about how do we help teachers feel successful in the classroom? Because I think a lot of them do not. There’s a lot of challenges these days.
[00:03:36.290] – Steve
It really illustrates why we lose a lot of teachers early on in their careers. Insufficient support and kind of throw people in the – I don’t know that there’s another profession that does that.
[00:03:54.090] – Sari
I agree, I agree.
[00:03:55.120] – Steve
High need. So would you talk a little bit about what you mean by an intersection of curriculum, technology, and people?
[00:04:04.870] – Sari
Sure. You know, when you think of an instructional system kind of as an interconnected rope, you’ve got curriculum, instruction, assessment, the skills, the standards you have to meet, and professional learning that surrounds that. We know that effective classroom experiences really require clear alignment and coordination across all those elements. And an old mentor of mine used to say, you know, management was great except for the people. Well, If it was in an abstract world, all those things would be connected and they work great. But you go into a classroom and everyone is different. They’re comprised of people. You’ve got a teacher who, you know, and lots of teachers in any building, each of whom has different backgrounds and experiences. They come to the work with different kinds of qualifications and experiences. And then you’ve got 25, 35 students right there in front of that teacher, all of whom also bring different backgrounds and experiences. And so you take that abstraction of the interconnected rope and it needs to be applied across all of those different classrooms and different situations. And so when we think about creating instructional materials, we look at the curriculum and standards, and the assessments that are all part of that.
[00:05:28.170] – Sari
And what’s the way to get the best and most effective application of those? You have to make that product easy to use and usable by the vast different teachers that are out there. And oftentimes, technology can help with that. So that’s why we think about curriculum and using technology to help support the teacher to bring in professional learning, whether it’s through the platform itself or outside of the platform, either virtually or in person. We do a lot of curriculum-based professional learning, not separated, not just here’s a theory of how you would teach something, but it’s very much embedded into the curriculum itself. And that’s been shown as most effective in terms of delivering high-quality instructional materials, you really have to pair it with a curriculum-based professional learning. And that has been effective. And we’re seeing great results in many of the districts that we’re working very closely with to both deliver the curriculum, the technology to support the curriculum, and the professional learning to ensure that the people are successful. Because ultimately, that’s what we’re talking about, student outcomes and making teachers feel good about what they do. Because when they feel good about what they do, we hope they’ll continue to stay in the classroom and do it.
[00:06:49.610] – Steve
So when you’re looking at curriculum, what is it that makes a curriculum qualify as high quality?
[00:06:59.090] – Sari
So what we call high-quality curriculum, sometimes called HQIM, high-quality instructional materials, other states call it high-quality instructional resources, HQIR, they’re grounded in learning science. So we know a lot today about how kids learn. They utilize evidence-based teaching practices, and they’re coherent, meaning that they are sequenced intentionally so that if you’re teaching math, you know what lesson has been taught beforehand or what was taught in the prior grade and what’s coming after, so that they are coherent and they all support student learning as they are building that knowledge and skill throughout their K-12. Learning continuum.
[00:07:45.010] – Steve
So now let’s add the technology piece. I’ll give you the old history. I’ve been in this business a little bit longer than you, but I was teaching a program called Individualized Math.
[00:08:10.570] – Steve
In the ’70s with no technology. And I had all these shelves and shelves and shelves of math and tracked students moving across from one to the next to the next with every student in a different spot at a different time with none of the technology.
[00:08:31.630] – Sari
Yeah, I’ve seen programs like that.
[00:08:33.590] – Steve
And it didn’t work because of none of the technology. We had all the best intentions, but there just wasn’t the possibility of organizing it and making it happen individually for kids.
[00:08:43.980] – Sari
Yeah, and I should explain that Imagine Learning has a broad range of resources depending upon the use case. So we have core curriculum in math, science, social studies, and English language arts that does have print materials and technology, so they work together in an interconnected way. And then we have other curriculum materials, mostly for middle school and high school, that is completely digital that is student self-directed for virtual learning, competency-based learning, credit recovery, and that kind of thing. So, I’m kind of generalizing here, but first thing is we are providing teachers with tools. So that digital-first approach is using the technology to support teachers by organizing materials, building in some of that professional learning that I talked about, so teachers have an opportunity to understand the pedagogy behind the lesson and the instructional strategies that have been proven effective. We have tools that save teachers time. So things like grading – if teachers want help with grading, we have taken an approach where we are using what we call curriculum-informed AI. We’re grading in the context of the curriculum itself. So it’s not some abstraction, it’s built right in. And then, the teacher has an opportunity to get that first draft of the response to the student, and then they can choose to keep it, modify it, or throw it out, you know, throw it out and start from scratch.
[00:10:18.490] – Sari
That is completely under the teacher’s control, which we think is very, very important. We are surfacing insights from the data that we’re collecting from any time that the student is online. We’re surfacing insights to teachers so they don’t have to go digging into reports. We’re enabling them to modify the curriculum if they want to make the lesson shorter. Perfect use cases – you’ve got a 1-hour math lesson, but you know through the insights that you’ve got 8 students who really haven’t mastered the prerequisite skills for today’s grade level lesson. So you could ask our system to change that to a 45-minute lesson and give me a 15-minute lesson where I can do some kind of pre-soaking with that group of students who has not yet mastered the prerequisite skills. We can do that through what we call curriculum-informed AI. The idea here ultimately is to save teachers’ time and free them up so that they can then use their valuable time one-on-one, small group, or whole group with the students monitoring, mentoring, motivating the students in their classrooms. So that’s the teacher side of how technology can really help.
[00:11:40.250] – Sari
From a learner’s perspective, the media and simulations to visualize phenomena, it’s very important. Real-world applications of the concepts. All of our programs really help put kids in the context of the real world as they are evaluating primary sources in social studies or looking at a scientific phenomenon on how a roller coaster works and the physics involved and the math involved there. All of those things go to really help learners understand the concepts that are being taught. And there’s tools to to help them organize their thinking, like guided notes or writing tools, you know, as they’re evaluating primary sources that they can keep a log of what they’re seeing. And then discussion guides for their group work. There’s a lot of group work involved in all of our core curricula that does have tools available for group sessions and so on. We’re purposely limiting the use of AI with students at this point. We’re not keen on all the tutors that have come out. We’re seeing that there’s a lot of risk involved. I’m very concerned about that. But we are looking at very specific use cases of AI with learners, things around math misconceptions as an example.
[00:13:03.970] – Sari
How do we get feedback to kids more quickly. Because the real situation is you’ve got teachers, some of them have student loads of 150, 180 students. And to really know every student well and to look at all their data and get that feedback and act quickly is very challenging. So what we’re looking to do is take data for anything that students have done online and surface that feedback for the students, but, you know, give them feedback more quickly, both surfacing it for themselves. Then we want them to own their learning. Student agency is very important, and I think that technology does help with that as well.
[00:13:41.050] – Steve
Maybe sets up the next question that I had in mind is – what are your thoughts about where students in this process have a chance to learn what we might call the critical life skills – resilience, problem solving, communication, critical thinking. How do you see that fitting in?
[00:14:01.100] – Sari
Yeah, we believe that that is blended right into our curriculum materials. So things like communication, collaboration, it’s a lot of group work as I mentioned. And so they have an opportunity to practice those skills. You know, critical thinking, it is embedded through all of our materials so that students are both learning the skills as well as the critical domain knowledge that is part of the academic standards. I think one of the challenges that we face nationally is the fact that most of the standards are focused on knowledge, on the academic knowledge, and not so much on those skills. But we’re starting to see some changes there. There are several states who have made moves. You know, Colorado calls it the essential skills, as an example, where they are bringing in actually those – some are calling them durable skills, some are calling them human skills, I heard last week. You know, and I think with the advent of AI, the emphasis now on the human skills, the things that make us uniquely human, are starting to come to the fore. So I’m starting to see states states review their standards and actually articulate what they want to see for students.
[00:15:13.610] – Sari
State of North Carolina has learning progressions across the different spans for each of the 7 durable skills that they consider part of their statewide portrait of a graduate. I think that’s a great move. I mean, it helps to make kids more future ready when they graduate once a district or a state articulates what they’re really looking for. And it then gives us as publishers the opportunity to identify those skills more clearly in our curriculum materials once they are part of the standards.
[00:15:47.350] – Steve
Do you see assessment of those kinds of skills being built in?
[00:15:53.310] – Sari
Eventually I do. There are a number of projects right now focused on that specifically. You might have heard of the Skills for the Future project, which is born out of the collaboration between the Carnegie Foundation and ETS. They have done some work there and tasks around that. It’s not a hard learning science yet, and so that’s – I think one of the challenges we’re facing in the field is around that. You know, I have a vision where students are taught to evaluate their own skills here and you do a collaborative a collaborative project. And if you ask each student, almost like we do in the work world, you’re part of a work group and how did you do here as part of that activity? And you ask the other students to evaluate mine.
[00:16:46.770] – Steve
Yeah.
[00:16:47.320] – Sari
And then the teacher gets to see all of those reflections. Now I could see a use case for AI evaluating those things and then surfacing those insights to a teacher. I think those are the kinds of assessments we’re going to see much more so then, how do you grade adaptability? It becomes very, very challenging because it’s so subjective, right? But if you can look at a learning progression over K-12 and say we expect – and, you know, you look at the English language arts standards, there is a lot about what we expect of kids’ communication skills. You know, they have to be able to speak and write as well at that production as well as read, that becomes really important.
[00:17:29.390] – Steve
I’m sensing reflection and feedback is critical on those skill sets, and reflection needs guidance. So as you’re bringing the AI piece in there, I think the more that AI could assist you in getting you to do the reflection, then AI actually give you the feedback.
[00:17:51.540] – Sari
100%. I couldn’t agree more.
[00:17:54.110] – Steve
Yeah. Before we close out, a large part of the listeners to this podcast are instructional coaches and building-level leaders. What role do you see those people have in putting the quality intersection of curriculum, technology, and people together?
[00:18:19.530] – Sari
Oh, it’s essential. It’s really essential. I would say, you know, it’s interesting, I was with a district superintendent. He’d been in his role about 2 years, and they use our Imagine I AM, our version of Illustrative Mathematics program. And I asked him how it was going, and he said, you know, it’s been a little, it’s been a little bumpy. And I said, tell me more about you know, what you did with professional learning. And he said, well, it was in place before I came, there was some instruction for the teachers and so on. I said, have you done any professional learning with your principals? And he said, no, why? And I said, because how do the principals know what to look for when they go into classrooms? So, what we’ve been trying to do is work with our district partners to implement professional learning, not just for teachers, But for the instructional coaches, they’re critical to building capacity within the district itself. And then, of course, with the building-level leaders, because they’re the ones that are holding everybody in the building accountable for following the curriculum, making sure that they’ve got that coherent, that interconnected rope is really working.
[00:19:36.330] – Sari
Because if it’s not, then any curriculum you purchase is wasted. So we really believe strongly that these pieces need to come together. The people, all the actors in a building, the curriculum, all supported by the technologies. That’s why we talk about those three together. So any closing thoughts, anything you’d wanna put out there for teachers, administrators, and…
[00:20:05.260] – Sari
Sure, I would love to just reflect on what’s happening in the market right now around screen time. There’s a kind of a bit of a backlash to all that we went through back that, that really grew during the pandemic years – use of technology in classrooms, often for use cases that various products were not designed for. Nobody thought Zoom school was a good idea. Let’s be realistic, we all were responding to a moment in time and a real need. And I think often we are conflating a lot of things. We’re conflating social media, which has been very damaging to students as they’re developing their social-emotional skills, conflating that – online gaming, which also has been challenging. Gambling, which I see a lot of boys getting pulled into, with the proper and intentional uses of instructional technology in the classroom.
[00:21:06.620] – Sari
I think there’s a real opportunity now to think deeply about, and I’m seeing our school leaders do it, they’re grappling with what are the right uses of instructional technology in the classroom. As I’ve explained to you, we really think deeply about learning science and where using the technology makes sense and where it doesn’t make sense. It should enable the teachers and empower them and enable students to take more agency of their learning. As kids move up through the grades, I would expect that more technology gets used. And we’ve seen legislation around this. Keep it very, very, very minimal – K-5 as kids are learning to read and learning to work in groups and all. Getting those foundational skills that are so important to their whole learning continuum, right? Where more is introduced in middle school, more is high school, because we want kids to be ready for whatever they go on to after high school. They need to be able to go into either the world of work, into higher education, into the military, wherever they choose to go, with the skills that they need. And many of those hirers, those employers, are looking for the computer skills, the ability to articulate how you use AI and what those right applications of AI are.
[00:22:29.590] – Sari
So if we just say no screens or we’re banning all screens, I think that’s a huge mistake. So what I would encourage your listeners to do is really think deeply about what are the intentional uses of technology at each grade level and what are those purposes? What’s the purpose behind which we’re using the technology?
[00:22:50.740] – Steve
So it’s actually part of learning how to learn.
[00:22:53.080] – Sari
That’s correct.
[00:22:53.730] – Steve
I mean, kids leaving school have the majority of learning that they’re gonna have to do in front of them.
[00:22:59.810] – Sari
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, the, the other question is the real equity issue, right? Because the kids who have access outside of school are going to use it. And so it’s incumbent on us to teach them how to use AI responsibly, how to use technology responsibly. That is an important skill as an adult. I know sometimes I get distracted into something that I shouldn’t get distracted into. And for kids who don’t have the developed brains that they will eventually, we hope they will, they need to learn about that. They need to learn to put up their own guardrails and focus. And so I do agree that screens have sometimes been distracting in schools. And we gotta guard against that.
[00:23:50.290] – Steve
I’m really, really glad you raised this issue here as we’re wrapping up. What’s the best way that listeners can come back to you with questions or learn more about Imagine Learning?
[00:24:03.350] – Sari
Oh, sure. Well, our website, imaginelearning.com, gives you a good sense of all of our curriculum materials and services. We do offer services beyond professional learning. So just reach out to us. We are in over 50% of the schools in the United States right now but we are eager to work with more. So thrilled to help you.
[00:24:26.610] – Steve
Well, we’ll put your website in the podcast lead-in.
[00:24:31.340] – Sari
Excellent.
[00:24:32.230] – Steve
Thanks so much. I really, really appreciated your insights.
[00:24:36.640] – Sari
I appreciate the time. Thank you, Steve. Take care.
[00:24:40.950] – Steve [Outro]
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn @SteveBarkley or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.