“When leaders consistently show up in classrooms, not to judge, but to learn and support, they help to create schools where continuous improvement is not an initiative but a way of life.” (Dr. Raymond Schmidt)

Dr. Schmidt describes how learning walks can build alignment among a teaching staff and administrative team. He explores elements pre, during, and post learning walk observations that build professional learning as continuous and collective, not a one-time event.

Read “From Presence to Practice: How Learning Walks and SMART Feedback Strengthen Instructional Leadership in K–12 Schools” here.

Visit Dr. Schmidt’ LinkedIn here.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.340] – Steve [Intro]
Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.

[00:00:29.810] – Steve
Building a Culture of Growth with Learning Walks. Today, I’m pleased to welcome Dr. Raymond Schmidt, an international school leader with experience across the United States, the Middle East, and Latin America as a teacher, instructional coach, advisor to school leaders, and senior administrator. Today, he serves as the head of school at Magen David Academy in Panama. The school serves the Orthodox Jewish community in Panama, aiming to develop lifelong learners with strong curiosity, critical thinking, and independent analysis. Raymond was recently featured on the cover of the February 2026 issue of K-12 Digest, where he authored an article titled “From Presence to Practice: How Learning Walks and Smart Feedback Strengthen Instructional Leadership in K-12 Schools.” In the article, he explores how learning walks, when paired with focused feedback and follow-up, can help school leaders stay connected to classroom practice and support meaningful professional growth for teachers.

[00:01:52.680] – Steve
Raymond, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:55.100] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Thank you, Steve.

[00:01:56.370] – Steve
I’m always looking forward to exploring leaders’ insights in building support for continuous teacher growth that promotes increased student success. It fits the mantra that I’ve been preaching for a lot of years that teaching needs to be a team sport and a public act. I’m wondering how your various experiences from the different roles that you had in education, how has that led to your current focus on professional learning and your beliefs about learning walks?

[00:02:32.380] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, that’s a great question, Steve. You know, as I think about that, it really goes back from the very, very beginning of my career, and I wouldn’t be here today without, literally dozens and dozens of other people guiding me along the way. And there’s one particular teacher I remember when I was teaching kindergarten in the early ’90s, and she was very, very helpful. I was very young and she really just took me under her wing. And I remember I would always want to pay her back somehow. I just felt like that she had done so much for me. And she would repeatedly say, one day the shoes will reverse and you will be able to mentor others. And she said, that’s all I really want is to know that when my time is done and everything I’m pouring into you, you know, you do the same for others as you move along your career. And it’s something that has not escaped me and I didn’t take lightly and I’ve taken into all the roles that I’ve served in. And then of course, as my career continued and I gained more experience and more education and worked with more colleagues and served in different roles, each one of those was really ordained in perfect stair-stepping order to provide me with more tools, more strategies, more humility, and the ability to work with adults as effectively as I was able to work with students.

[00:03:58.170] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
And I think also is, I try not to ever lose sight of what it means and to be a teacher, both the struggles and the victories and the challenges and all of it that comes with being a teacher. Because when you are out of the classroom for many years, and I have been out of the classroom for a while, it’s easy to forget what it’s like to be a teacher and all that that encompasses. And it’s something I really try to remind myself often of what it’s like to be a teacher. And what helps with that is to be in the classrooms frequently. It’s so easy to be tied to your office, but when you make a concerted effort to be in the classrooms, it’s much easier to really have a pulse on and a remembrance of what being a teacher is. So I think although all of the roles have prepared me for where I am today with providing effective and efficient learning walks, it really started in the very beginning with that initial teacher that reminded me, when your time comes, make sure that you’re there for others and helping to nurture them.

[00:05:00.510] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
And that was really a profound impact on me.

[00:05:04.120] – Steve
Well, how about walking us through how— it almost sounds funny— walking us through learning walks. [laughter] Can you walk us through how you have implemented learning walks in this school? Now you’ve only been there—

[00:05:17.810] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
This is my first year.

[00:05:19.430] – Steve
First year, okay.

[00:05:20.470] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
But I’ve been in Central America for almost 10 years now, so different schools in Central America.

[00:05:25.680] – Steve
So learning walks in place when you to the school or is it something you’ve implemented?

[00:05:30.540] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, I would say somewhat. Not as structured as I would like and not as consistent and not as aligned. So if there’s 3 components that I brought to the learning walks at this particular campus is that it is now much, much more structured, more aligned, much more intentional. And I really don’t give myself credit for that. Those are people that have helped me along the way. Not only that person that helped me when I was a teacher, but other administrators that I’ve worked with in other school settings. And each one of those experiences is helping to be able to then bring it to situations like this. And so here, right away, it was fairly evident to me that I needed to align the three sections. There’s an early childhood section, a primary section, and a secondary school section, and that we were all calibrated to be looking for the same types of things, providing very similar structured SMART feedback to the teachers and making sure that our learning walks were not – these particular learning walks were not evaluative in nature. Sure, they provided us with information and understanding, but it was really about providing support for the teachers to improve instruction, to improve learning outcomes, and to simultaneously build relationships and trust with the teachers.

[00:06:55.170] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
And it takes time at first, it can be suspicious, the new person coming in and observing me, but the more frequently you go in and the more frequently they see that you’re there really just providing support, recognizing all of the things that they are doing well, I don’t think they hear that enough, then that trust and those relationships build so that you can provide more effective feedback that will have direct impacts on improving instruction and learning.

[00:07:23.450] – Steve
So you use the word aligned. Talk a little bit more about that.

[00:07:29.200] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Right. So in my particular case, we even have two different campuses where our early childhood pre-K through kinder is a separate campus and a fair distance away, 20 minutes away. It’s not a walking distance type of situation. So right there, that, as you can imagine, that creates a situation of almost like two schools, but not really. And then our primary and secondary, even though it’s on the same campus, there’s a big physical gap. And that can sometimes make it feel like it’s 3 different schools all under one name or 3 different ships with 3 different captains running it in different ways. And it’s something that when I first arrived here, I asked to read the Cognia report or accreditation report, and they had noticed that as well, that although there was some common practices, it did seem more like 3 schools rather than 1. So to help align some of those things, I have scheduled weekly learning walks that I do with each of the principals. So the principal, myself, will go in and do 3 or 4 learning walks in a day, and then they do them on their own. But the calibration piece comes from the 4 of us meeting together without observing and having conversations.

[00:08:41.660] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Them meeting with their teachers, and then myself and the principals doing the learning walks together so that we are following through with what we’re saying as far as what we’re looking for, expectations, the type of feedback. And this was also solicited from the teachers. What is it that they want from us to look for? What kind of support are they seeking? How do they want to receive their feedback? And it’s all very, very much connected to our school goals as well. So it was very intentional. Very concerted. It took, I would say, about 6 weeks to get it to where it’s established and functioning and has been ever since then.

[00:09:20.180] – Steve
There’s a question I use when I’m coaching teachers in a pre-conference. And my question is, if I could walk around the room during the lesson and put my finger on kids’ heads and I was able to hear what’s going on inside their heads, what is it you want to have going on inside their heads? So I’m going to modify that question now for you. As you’re observing in classrooms If I had the chance to listen into the conversation in your head, could you talk about the conversation I’d be hearing?

[00:09:50.720] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting because when you talk about learning walks, a lot of times it automatically feels like, okay, you’re there observing the teacher. And yes, that is happening. But inside my head, I am constantly reminding myself to really be observing the students. And really pay attention to the students and what their participation is and what is their activity, what is their engagement, what is their level of excitement and enthusiasm, what kind of connections are they making or not making, what kind of answers are they offering, is it surface, is it critical thinking type of answers? Now that is obviously very connected to what the teacher is doing to help guide and facilitate But inside my head, I literally think if I’m paying too much close attention to what the teacher is doing, I am reminding myself, you know, sweep the room and look at the students and pay attention to the level of engagement and activity and participation. And then that will then lead to my next thought is I wonder what that child is thinking. Maybe they’re quiet, maybe they are attentive, but I wonder what they’re thinking. And so what I will do on many occasions is without being disruptive, I’ll find an organic opportunity to move and go inquire from that student.

[00:11:11.840] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Tell me what you’re thinking, or what is the purpose of this lesson, and what are you learning from this instruction? And so that gives me an opportunity to either confirm or really just solicit what it is that they’re thinking. So in summary, I’m reminding myself to to pay very close attention to the students, even more so than the teacher. I think that informs a lot about the teacher when you’re really paying attention to the students. And then at times, quite frequently, inquiring from the students exactly what it is that they’re thinking. Some of them, you know, because they’re very verbal, you know, they’re very, I don’t know, charismatic. You know what they’re thinking, you know what they’re doing, it’s evident. But some not so much. And so that strikes curiosity in me.

[00:11:56.740] – Steve
Yeah, I’m pretty sure it was a John Hattie piece that I had read that about 80% of what’s happening in the classroom with students isn’t observed by the teacher, which had always pressed me as to why any kind of coaching that puts another person in the classroom who gets to watch and pay attention to what you, the teacher, don’t have the opportunity to pay attention to becomes so important.

[00:12:30.890] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, I would agree. And, you know, it’s interesting because when I was teaching, I think it was when I was getting my master’s degree, one of the assignments was to videotape yourself. You didn’t have to share it with anybody. You didn’t have to submit it. Had nothing to do that. That wasn’t the purpose. It was really to give you a perspective that you likely didn’t have. And even though you think, oh, you know, I know what I’m doing, I know what I’m seeing, I know what I’m aware of, it’s humbling and affirming and interesting when you do actually videotape yourself, if you’re willing to have an objective view and watch yourself and also watch the students and you do begin to realize, wow, actually I’m not as aware as I think I am, just kind of an oxymoron. But at the same time, it’s good to have that information. It’s good to know that. And I think it really heightens your senses. It humbles you. And I think if you do it on a semi-systematic basis, it can provide you with information about particular students that you would not have any other way.

[00:13:44.030] – Steve
Yeah. So let’s talk about what happens after the observation then. What’s the process you’re using for feedback to the teacher?

[00:13:52.940] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Sure. So we’ll go into a handful of classrooms, like I said, 3 or 4 together, myself with the principal, and then we’ll go back somewhere and sit down and talk about the observations. The beauty of doing it with more than one person is oftentimes I would say it’s probably about 50/50. Half of what you talk about, you both saw the same thing. And then there’s another half where they’re saying something, I was like, okay, I didn’t see that at all, right? And vice versa. Or I talked to this student, this is what they said, and I talked to this student. And so it is nice to have that different information. It’s also nice to be doing it with the principal because they oftentimes have background information about what your students – the teacher that you might not have, and that might explain something you observe. And it really is very professional dialog like that. It’s not to condemn or criticize. It’s to identify what is working well, what is successful, how might even what is working well and successful be enhanced. So it’s not just, well, what isn’t working that we need to find.

[00:14:59.390] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Sometimes it’s just a minor tweak that might even make it better. Sometimes it’s not even necessarily make it better. It’s just something to consider. Have you considered it, you know, delivering instruction from this approach, small group and think-pair-share versus whole group, whatever the case may be. So we have those conversations all tied to the school goals and our curriculum because those are also very much connected. And then we have a very systematic feedback that the principal will then share with the teacher. I’m included on it because I’m part of the observation as well. And then I would say, about 75% of the time, the teacher will then respond with more dialog. “Oh, thank you very much for sharing that. This is the first time I tried this lesson, or thank you very much. Oh, I didn’t really realize that.” So it just, it begins some of that dialog, which then may continue via email, but oftentimes can continue as, “hey, can I set up a meeting and come talk with you about that?” So all of that ties into building the relationships as well. That trust is continuing to grow and grow and grow.

[00:15:58.500] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
And then, you know, on occasion, as any school would experience, if there’s an observation that is concerning more than normal, or maybe a repeated observation that starts to become concerning, then those are typically a requested in-person meeting. That’s not something we’re going to share over an email. The email might identify some of the things that are positive that were happening. And hey, when you get a chance, I’d love to talk to you about this part of the lesson. And then the principal has a private conversation from there. And then when we start getting into second and third and fourth rounds of teachers, because we keep all of this information, it gives us the opportunity to follow up and then really praise them for something that maybe was suggested in a previous learning walk and now we’re seeing in some later on. So for example, maybe a recommendation was to make sure that students have peer collaboration opportunities. I’d say that’s a big one that, we provide feedback with more peer-to-peer collaboration. And then when we’re going in the second, third, fourth time and we start seeing peer collaboration, we want them to know that we notice.

[00:17:06.920] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
We notice that you received the feedback. We notice that you took it into consideration and began implementing it, and well done, it was implemented effectively, so that, you know, they feel some some validation and affirmation for receiving the feedback in a professional and willing manner.

[00:17:24.900] – Steve
What would you say are some of the most important things you do that helps the teacher move from just kind of hearing the feedback to being reflective and considering how they continually move their skill set ahead to ever greater impact?

[00:17:50.250] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Right. And it would really segue with kind of the end part of the question I just answered. And that is, I think it begins with the teachers that are willing to be collaborative, whether it is just emails back and forth or in person, because that means that they are receiving it from the perspective of supportive versus evaluative. And then when we see some of those practices being implemented or what sometimes happens as well is teachers saying, okay, great, I would really like to implement more anchor charts in my classroom, but I ran out of butcher paper or I ran out of chart paper. If you can help me out with that, I will. Oh, great, right? Okay, that’s a very tangible, practical thing. And that’s then on us as leaders. Those kinds of things happen as well. And they’re not saying it at all like, yeah, okay, well, if you give me this and I’ll— no, it’s not. But maybe we weren’t aware. Oh, okay, that’s a problem we can solve easily. And then it is, I wouldn’t say a red flag, but an indicator if you’re providing feedback to teachers and you never hear back from them.

[00:19:01.720] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
That might prompt, you know, just a popping in the classroom, “how are things going? I really enjoyed visiting your class last week. Are all things going well? Do you have any questions?” And just again, trying to really nurture that relationship. ‘Cause I do feel that there is a pattern that when there is a relationship and teachers trust and respect leaders, administrators, coaches, and they’re willing to work as a team and as a partner, there’s no limits because then everybody is on the same page with the same goal of supporting students, which is really the core of what we’re supposed to be doing. It’s not about me, the teacher. It’s not about me, the head of school, or me, the principal, or me, the coach. It’s not about us as the adults. It’s really about what’s best for students. And nobody with any particular title is any better or superior in any way. What is better and superior is when everybody is working together for that same common goal. And so that’s really how I know that it’s working and effective. And when there’s not as much collaboration, that’s where I realize, okay, that’s someone that we need to try to make an extra effort to pull into the fold.

[00:20:11.270] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
And sometimes that’s slow and that’s okay. Sometimes it’s not as easy and natural for everybody and that’s fine. And sometimes it does require, no different than students, some sort of individual differentiated approach that’s going to work with that particular teacher. And sometimes maybe it doesn’t work from the principal, maybe it works from the instructional coach, or maybe vice versa. Maybe there’s a relational thing that works better with one person than the other. Again, that’s where everyone has to put their pride aside. It doesn’t matter who it is as long as somebody is working collaboratively, again, in the interest of the students.

[00:20:48.230] – Steve
So Raymond, if a principal or coach is listening into our conversation here and they reflect back on some of the recent classroom visits that they took part in, whether it’s a learning walk or a different observation tool, what questions might they be asking themselves to help determine whether or not what they’re doing is actually supporting teacher learning?

[00:21:19.520] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Well, I guess my answer to that would be is the student learning? Are the students learning? Are the students absorbing? Are the students retaining? Are the students engaged and active and participating? Are the students thinking critically and collaboratively? To me, if that’s happening, and it can always be improved and enhanced, and you can get the teacher to continue to grow and improve and enhance the student learning, well then, then you are effective with, with the teacher learning as well. And I’m not shy at all when I’m collaborating with principals and teachers to absolutely acknowledge when they teach me something as well. When I go in and observe a strategy and approach, a lesson that I have never seen before, that I am not aware of, or I have not seen implemented as effectively, I have no problem acknowledging, wow, that was amazing. I wish I used that tool when I was a teacher. I’ve never seen that implemented in that way and it was very effective. That to me then makes it more of a collaborative process. But I think it really always goes back to the students. What are the student learning outcomes and how engaged are the students?

[00:22:35.460] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
We can use data as well. We can talk about pre and post MAP assessments and other AP assessments, other benchmark assessments. Are students learning? Are students meeting projected growth? That can sometimes tie in with those in-person conversations with teachers as well. So it really all goes back to the student level of engagement, participation, critical thinking, and collaboration. And if teachers are able to improve those things, then I feel like they themselves are also improving as educators.

[00:23:08.400] – Steve
So watching for a change in – I use the phrase, student learning production behaviors.

[00:23:15.300] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Correct.

[00:23:16.020] – Steve
It’s what the student does that causes the learning to happen. So if I come back and see a change in what kids are doing, that’s likely to get me down the road where I want to be.

[00:23:29.010] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, and I think it’s very easy to see too, when you have those students that are maybe challenging behavior students, not always, but oftentimes that challenging behavior is due to some sort of lack of engagement in the learning. And that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily anybody’s fault or somebody is doing something wrong or negligent, particularly the teacher. It doesn’t necessarily mean that. It may, but it doesn’t necessarily. Some students just are a little bit more challenging to get engaged. But when you as a team can identify what might engage that student different from the others and the teacher recognizes, okay, yeah, actually that will be successful and is willing to implement it, I mean, that’s a win for everybody. That’s a win for the teacher. That’s a win for the student. It’s a win for the student’s peers. And that’s something that’s also very tangible, very palpable to observe and something I really do like to praise teachers for. You know, so-and-so was really struggling the first couple of times I’ve come in and now they’re like at the board modeling for you. What are you doing? Or, oh, did you, did you implement that practice?

[00:24:37.510] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
What is different?

[00:24:39.680] – Steve
Fair to say that as head of school, doing the learning walks with your principals, you’re also engaged in increasing the principals’ learning as well as your own.

[00:24:53.640] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, I hope so. My focus this year is really alignment – that we’re all on the same page, that we’re implementing the same expectations, same type of feedback, practices with really many, many aspects of the school and I think it’s happening. I mean, the principals are commenting on it. Even in some of our meetings, we have an academic committee meeting. Some of the principals are commenting on how those things have improved systematically across the school. We’re also going through our Cognia mid-cycle review right now, which works out very well because for a lack of better words, it’s forcing us to do some of these things that we should be doing anyways, but it gives us the excuse of, okay, well, we have no choice, so we need to do this. In my mind, I’m thinking, well, these are good practices. So that part makes it a little bit easier. But yes, I would, I would say so. But you know what, Steve? I wouldn’t say that they’re learning any more from this process than I am as well. Every school you go to, every person that you work with that’s new and different, everybody brings different experiences.

[00:25:55.080] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
And if you’re open, again, it doesn’t matter what your title is or what role you’re serving in a school. If you’re willing, there’s always opportunities to learn new things and grow. So yes, although they’re probably learning from that process. I don’t know that it’s any more than I am as well.

[00:26:11.950] – Steve
So you just flipped my statement. My statement was teaching is a team sport and a public act, and you’ve just flipped it to being a school leader is a team sport and a public act.

[00:26:30.830] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
I think so. I’m a big believer in and the servanthood leadership approach. And when you, at least from my perspective, when you take that kind of approach, there’s a level of humility and a level of we’re all in this together, shoulder to shoulder, not vertically but horizontally. And I think when we have that kind of approach, everybody benefits from that. Everybody is learning from each other. And as long as the center is always the student learning and outcomes, what’s best for the students, as long as that always remains remains the core of every goal, then I think you’re doing the right thing and you’re headed in the right direction.

[00:27:13.000] – Steve
So let me give you a little stretch piece here. You described pretty well for me what I’d see if I showed up at your school tomorrow and got to join you on learning walks. You got a picture of 5 years down the road? You get to see the culture that the start of your learning walks is building, what would you hope noticeable 4 or 5 years down the road?

[00:27:42.750] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
I would hope noticeable that there’s an increase in student engagement for all students. Even if it’s a very high percentage right now of students being engaged, I really would like it to, and I know this might seem unrealistic, but 100% of our students are engaged in the learning process. Because when you have that in place, when, when that is strong and prevalent across all of the classrooms, then you really decrease the number of behavior challenges that you face, which just really makes the whole school system so much more enjoyable and such a pleasant culture to be working in. The other piece is really systematic and aligned, that all of our teachers are using the same kinds of language and I don’t mean English versus Spanish, but the same kind of instructional language and behavior expectations and approaches and strategies, whether we’re in the hallways, whether we’re in the classrooms, whether you’re in science class, whether you’re in high school or preschool, we all are really implementing aligned systematic practices, which I do think makes it much easier for the students so that they know that no matter whose classroom they’re in, the expectations are going to be the same.

[00:28:57.000] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
The accountability is going to be the same. The level of engagement is gonna be the same. It doesn’t mean every teacher will have the same personality. We’re not robots. It doesn’t mean everyone will have the same kind of approach and enthusiasm and charisma, whatever the case may be. We are going to be unique, but some of those systematic practices, again, the language, expectations, those should be the same. So that we truly are one school no matter what the grade level is, no matter what building you’re in. I think not just students, not just children, I think overall in general, people, human beings in general function better, more efficiently when there’s systems in place, when there’s, you know what the expectations are and they should be high at all times and you know what the accountability piece is and you remove any sort of ambiguity and things are very transparent and clear. It doesn’t mean everything will be perfect. but it sure makes it a whole lot easier when that kind of structure is in place. Not just easier, but more, more effective, more efficient, more successful.

[00:30:03.660] – Steve
Do you see teachers entering into the learning walks? In other words, teachers being part of observing in other teachers’ classrooms as part of the learning walks down the road?

[00:30:14.420] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, I do. Down the road. Right now there’s some of that in a more informal and structured way. We provide opportunities for teachers to go observe each other. But really for their own benefit, their own dialog, their own conversation. But yes, I think that’s something I could absolutely see later down the road. Yeah. And it probably would begin with conversations with the teachers, say, “hey, I’m thinking about this. I’m not exactly sure, even if I have something in mind, I’m not exactly sure how we would go about doing this or implementing it. So I wanna hear your thoughts. How many of you would be interested? How would you like to see that happen? What kind of rotation?” So they really have a lot of thought and input to that practice because when you solicit from them, there’s a lot more willingness and buy-in versus, you know, sending out a memo that says, okay, starting next week, this is what we’re going to be doing and here’s your rotation schedule.

[00:31:06.260] – Steve
Well, Raymond, thanks a lot. I was looking forward to this conversation. I will post the link to your article in the podcast lead-in, so make it easy for people to find and that they can follow up with a read on that. If listeners would like to connect with you with questions they have or respond after reading the article, what’s the best way for them to touch base with you?

[00:31:33.530] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Probably the easiest, best way is on LinkedIn. You can just search my name, Dr. Raymond J., the letter J., Schmidt. I’m quite active there and my contact information is there. So LinkedIn would probably be the best stop.

[00:31:44.840] – Steve
Terrific. That’s what we’ll do. Thank you so much.

[00:31:47.790] – Dr. Raymond Schmidt
Yeah, thank you, Steve. This was wonderful. And Thank you for inviting me.

[00:31:53.580] – Steve [Outro]
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Steve Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

 

How does a staff’s engagement in reflection generate increased staff learning that promotes ownership and accountability for student success? Highly experienced school leader, Dr. Matt Horvath, explores leaders work with coaching, PLCs, and professional learning for classified staff. The podcast provides insights and questions to promote your reflection.

Email Matt: leadershipnexusconsulting@gmail.com

Visit Matt’s Leadership Nexus Consulting website here.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.340] – Steve [Intro]
Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.

[00:00:29.840] – Steve
School Staff Learning – Increasing Student Success. Joining our podcast today is Dr. Matt Horvath, who recently became the principal at Manhattan Beach Middle School in California. Matt brings 25 years of experience in education ranging from a high school social studies teacher, dean of students, coach, athletic director, and assistant principal. In addition, he has also served as a middle and high school principal, and most recently as assistant superintendent of personnel services for Beverly Hills Unified School District. As Matt and I spoke earlier, it was clear to me that he brings a lot of experience and insight into his current role of middle school principal and he just began this school year. I’m really looking forward to our conversation. Welcome, Matt.

[00:01:27.220] – Matt
Hi, Steve. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:30.430] – Steve
Super, super. I’m glad to have you here. I enjoyed our earlier get acquainted conversation. I’m looking forward to the podcast. For starters, would you tell people just a little bit about the Manhattan Beach Unified School District and then a little bit about about your school?

[00:01:49.780] – Matt
Yeah, sure. So, Manhattan Beach Unified School District is a beach community, school district, very affluent community. We are just southwest of Los Angeles. Extremely affluent community. The school district’s about 5,500 students. We have 4 elementary schools, 1 middle school, and 1 high school. Again, it’s a wonderful school district, very high achieving. And again, it’s on a beach community. So it’s pretty interesting. You’ve got tons of professionals, people who’ve done— you have doctors, lawyers, very traditional. You have a lot of different professional, ex-professional athletes that live in our community, which brings its own uniqueness. So we’re an athletic powerhouse in the school district. And we also have a lot of actors and kids. So it’s a very unique place, but it’s also a beach culture. So it’s a kind of laid back. So you got all these different people coming together in this kind of laid back, sunny Southern California community. So really, really cool place and just a wonderful place to be. It’s where I call home as well. So it’s a great place.

[00:03:07.930] – Steve
And how about the size and the structure of your middle school?

[00:03:11.150] – Matt
Yeah, so our middle school, we’re about 1,175 students. We have grades in grades 6 through 8. Again, they come from those 4 feeder elementary schools, and we feed with the high school, which is Mira Costa High School. So our job in the middle school obviously is to prepare them to go over – most students kind of shift over to the high school, but very high achieving. Again, very affluent. Tons of parental community involvement, not only at the campus. I say some of our parents are our best employees because they’re here every day volunteering and helping out and giving their time, you know, but as well as their resources. So tons of money that they give to our staff, which is great.

[00:04:01.740] – Steve
Comparing the community that you’re working in now back across the different places you’ve worked across your career, kind of similar, great differences?

[00:04:16.030] – Matt
I’ve worked in a few like this. Locally, Palos Verdes is a similar community. Beverly Hills, very affluent, different types of folks that live in those communities. However, I also, when I started, I moved – I grew up in Detroit and started teaching there, which is far different than these communities. But when I moved out, I started working in Los Angeles Unified School District – completely different. Very low socioeconomic status, high Latino populations where we’re predominantly white in this area. So very, very different. But I always say kids all have needs. They all have different types of needs. They all need our love and they all need our support and they all need a good teacher in front of them. Just, I believe focusing on different types of needs that our communities have.

[00:05:11.030] – Steve
A middle schooler’s a middle schooler. [laughter]

[00:05:13.360] – Matt
[laughter] That’s right. They’re all goofy and crazy and figuring it out and all over the place on a daily basis, which hopefully is keeping me young, Steve.

[00:05:25.710] – Steve
I can only imagine that the fun – I know the fun and excitement of that. So I’m excited about the different experiences you’ve had from different places and different roles. So kind of bring all of that into our conversation. And when you and I spoke earlier, we identified 3 topics to explore connected to the learning of school staff. And one was professional learning communities. Then we also talked a little bit about the professional learning for classified staff. So if we could kind of take those one at a time. So starting with coaching, what have your experiences been with coaching, either informally or as a formal program in schools?

[00:06:13.920] – Matt
Yeah, so I have done a ton of work around administrator development in my time. And throughout that, I’ve really based my leadership on coaching and not necessarily – well, somewhat mentoring also, I think there’s different roles in that, but I take coaching very, very seriously. You and I talked about it before, I said, I believe our best teachers are our coaches, the folks that also coach, because they understand that sometimes if something’s not working, we need to change midstream. So as an administrator where I was working at the district office and overseeing principals and coaching principals, I’ve taken that back now being in the middle school and working directly with teachers, and I take that same lens. I’m there to observe. I like to collect evidence with our teachers and then provide feedback and coaching and ask lots and lots of questions. And I think that’s really important to the growth of our staff. And I try to model that because I believe that’s the best way to teach our students as well, right? I inform our teachers it’s not about me giving and you receiving.

[00:07:31.100] – Matt
How can I facilitate the learning and ask lots of questions and really press on students – they’re the ones with the knowledge. We want to just get that out of them rather than I give, you receive. And then, how can we ask lots of questions? How can we coach them, give them the supports and the scaffolds when they don’t, but to really, you know, get that information out of them.

[00:07:54.660] – Steve
I’m currently writing a blog focused around reflection. And to me, that’s what makes the coaching piece jump out. And you said ask a lot of questions a couple of times. And the key value of those questions is that they create an opportunity for reflection that not many of us can do on our own. So creating an environment where that reflection time is built in, I think, is critical.

[00:08:32.900] – Matt
That’s right. So anytime I observe a classroom, I say, “I’m here to support you and help your growth.” And I always leave by saying, “I can’t be in your classroom every day, but I want you to be thinking about the same types of things. I want you to hear that voice in your head. Matt’s asking me lots of questions.” So after I leave, I will leave them with my script, but then I also leave with questions to ponder – reflection questions. So you’re always thinking about, did I have my goals and objectives aligned to the instruction and to the assessment that was happening in the classroom? And I say, if you can answer those 3 things and you can reflect upon those 3 things and honestly say, yes, they were aligned and here’s why, then I said, I think we’ve got it. And I really think that that’s an important piece. And as you stated, it just doesn’t happen enough. In my world, I’m the biggest reflector on an hourly basis, daily basis, nightly basis. I’m waking up thinking, reflecting on things that went, that happened that day and how I could do better, how I could do things differently.

[00:09:43.820] – Matt
So I try to impress that upon people because I think that’s where the true growth happens. And if we create the conditions that are safe to be able to reflect and say, you know, it’s okay that we’ve made some mistakes, it’s okay we didn’t have it right on. And if we can create that safe atmosphere, the effective filter comes down and people feel safe, they take risks. And ultimately I see some of the best growth in teachers and I hope they’re working with their students the same way and we see growth with our students as well.

[00:10:19.610] – Steve
I’ll point you to that – you are so right on there. And I’d say that’s a great question to build into the end of some of your coaching sessions with a teacher, which would be what similarities do you see between the way you and I interact in this conversation and the way that you do with students? That modeling, I think, is really, really powerful.

[00:10:44.220] – Matt
I love it, Steve. Every time I talk to you, speak with you, I get nuggets. I get nuggets from you and I’m like, yes! This is what I need to add. So I think of this – I talk about this triple track agenda when I’m doing different professional developments. I say, today, it’s your learning here, but what are you gonna take from your learning to then take it down to that next track to support students. We’re here in this professional development. I’m modeling this with you. Now you’re taking that and modeling it with your students. And I think that’s really important that we think about it that way. And that’s a great question. I say these things, but I don’t put that in my questions. So thank you for that.

[00:11:32.360] – Steve
And really the ultimate next step of that then is the kids taking it to their classmates.

[00:11:38.060] – Matt
That’s right.

[00:11:38.640] – Steve
So now you’re really building a support system network into the school. And again, I think it’s one that comes back to your connection to sports coaching. It’s pretty common for a sports coach to build peer-to-peer, player-to-player coaching into the system where kids know what to be looking for and being able to give feedback to each other, knowing what we’re looking to execute. And it’d be similar to carry that over into our classrooms.

[00:12:13.780] – Matt
Love it. Yeah, for sure.

[00:12:16.360] – Steve
So let’s go on to look at professional learning communities. Those are a big area of interest to me. I did all of my teaching on teaching teams that functioned as professional learning communities before that phrase was out there. So I’m an early believer. And when we talked before, I know that you’ve got PLCs built into your middle school now. So you wanna talk about the structure of that a little bit as to how you have set up the PLCs and how you’re looking at them working?

[00:12:54.340] – Matt
For sure. So my background, and when I was a middle school principal, 13 years ago – even longer than that. I was high school, middle and high school, 13 to 17 years ago during that time. We had a weekly professional learning community time set up where we had a late start. So we built systems around that. The unique thing about now, cut to Manhattan Beach Middle School, is they had created a structure prior to me arriving where they have a daily professional learning community time set up. So teachers, we have a 7-period day, so most teachers teach 5, they have one conference period or preparation period and then one PLC period. So it’s a common planning time and common professional learning community time for all teachers. So very unique because…

[00:13:49.530] – Steve
That’s awesome.

[00:13:51.070] – Matt
Yeah, it’s great to the point that you have built the systems and structures to make it effective, right? So coming in, during my interviews and communication with some of the district office folks were that they just didn’t find the accountability systems and structures were not there. They thought people were not using it as effectively as they could, which naturally I think on a daily – you think, great, daily PLCs, but there’s work to be done there. There’s thinking, there’s structure that needs to happen. So one of the things I focused on when I came in and I asked lots of questions before we started to see how effective, what kind of, things were happening, what structures, accountability structures we had in place. And I found some where I was hearing the department and hearing the work they were doing. I quickly knew I got to get out of their way. They got it. They’re on. Get out of their way to the effect of I can, you know, impart some things, but not a lot of major work to be done here. Some other departments I could quickly gather that, yeah, we need to do some work here.

[00:15:02.810] – Matt
We need to create some structure for them. Get them some help with some knowledge and do some – we did read some articles around professional learning communities and ways to support them. So we implemented some of that, we did some reading, we did some reflection. Everybody has a Google Doc, so a Google Form that has professional learning communities, really the 4 questions that you think about, what do we want students to know and be able to do? What happens when they don’t? So we start with that, and then on the Google Form, it’s essentially give some reflection upon what their daily work is, their daily learning, what they’re working on together. We create goals on this document as well. So it’s really a working document. So we try to, myself and the other administrators, get into those PLCs and listen and be engaged and be involved. But as you can imagine, in a middle school, we’re running around, it doesn’t always happen. On this form, we use it as an interactive form. We try to jump on every day. They will provide some feedback. I am always asking questions. “Sounds great. How have you considered…” And that’s one way to kind of keep engaged and I believe keep the accountability.

[00:16:21.670] – Matt
And we found it a really unique tool because then I get some great responses back from them saying, “yes, we have considered. Had you been there, Matt, you would have heard…” And we jab and joke a little bit, but it’s really— it’s been a productive way to hold each other accountable. Michael Fullen talks about internal accountability, and I try to stress that with our staff, that when we’re internally accountable, these are when the best results will happen. This is the best type of accountability that the state can give us things, our district, the county can tell us what to do, however, until we’re internally accountable to one another, that’s when we will really thrive. So that has been our structure. It’s been working. It’s been working well since the last we spoke. The thing that I am still kind of considering of this nuance, this piece between professional working communities and professional learning communities. I’ve been really kind of thinking about that and thinking about how does that play out and how does that work for us? Because I really, I like what you’re talking about.

[00:17:34.920] – Matt
Sometimes we are just doing work and then other times we find departments that are really learning. And what I’ve been doing is during our department chair meetings is having our team share out the work that they’re doing as well. Things that we like to highlight, I’ll ask some departments, hey, I’d love what you were doing, can you share out so other departments can, can pick up on that? So we’re finding it’s certainly a work in progress, but we’ve demonstrated a lot of growth. I think we’ve built a lot of trust and I’m anxious to see where we continue to grow in that area.

[00:18:11.750] – Steve
So I’m gonna offer you another question to play with.

[00:18:14.550] – Matt
Okay.

[00:18:16.610] – Steve
The 4 questions that PLCs usually use.

[00:18:20.060] – Matt
Yes.

[00:18:21.180] – Steve
I add one. And that is after you’ve described the outcome you’re looking for from the students, the phrase that I use, which took me a long time to come up with, is student learning production behaviors. So, my focus is that teachers don’t cause student achievement, students cause student achievement. And that again makes your great connection to the performing arts folks and the athletic coaches. They can’t teach you these things. They can teach you how to learn them. So if you decide, here’s the skill set we want kids to master, here’s the concept we want kids to develop. So then my next question is, what would kids need to do that would cause them to most likely do that learning? So just the way a coach would say, what do kids need to do at practice that’s most likely to develop the skillset I want? So what is it that when you walked in and you watched kids, you’d say that what those kids are doing is likely to get us to that outcome we want? And then the rest of your questions stay the same. But I found a lot of teachers jump from here’s the outcome, how should we teach it?

[00:19:40.470] – Steve
And if instead you’re sticking into the middle there, here’s the outcome, what would kids do to learn it? Now I can go to what I would do about teaching it. And then when you get to the later questions, then you can begin to differentiate that. So for the kids who’ve mastered it, they need to spend their time doing this. For the kids who haven’t mastered it, they need to come back and spend their time doing this.

[00:20:05.170] – Matt
I like it. Yeah, that question inherently to me, the light bulbs are going off to say when we’re answering this question, we’re more of a professional learning community.

[00:20:20.060] – Steve
Yeah/ Because then, you said that you ask the PLCs to share their things they’re doing with each other. Another word that you can sneak in there is to share what they’re learning with each other.

[00:20:33.900] – Matt
Love it.

[00:20:34.640] – Steve
So they’re making a discovery. One of the pieces I’ve put out with folks is you really know that your PLCs have arrived when they’re causing a lot of problems for you as an administrator. And what I mean by that is they’re pushing. You know, they’re coming up with new ideas and new ways that could take the kids to this next step. And either, we don’t have the schedule for that now or we don’t have the resources for it, but they aren’t just getting the work done, they’re pushing it out into the future.

[00:21:11.800] – Matt
Yeah, that’s great. It’s something spot on here. We have, without going into depth, it’s really an advisory period that we do once a week. It’s really around – we do reteaching, we give makeup tests, we do support intervention during this period, and teachers create what that, we call it airtime, what that airtime is each week. And then students, they either will bring students in or students can elect to be in there and they can choose to be in there. And it’s fascinating to be thinking about that and how we engage that.

[00:21:58.720] – Steve
So let’s go to the last one that we had identified, and that was looking at the learning for classified staff. And I’m guessing in the last position you had, that was a focus of yours. And I’m wondering what you learned there that you bring into the principalship.

[00:22:21.170] – Matt
Sure was. So my focus, and this is how I kind of met our mutual friend Rob, was in human resources, what I was finding is, 90% of the problems that we had on our campuses came from the classified staff. So maintenance operations, custodians, different classified folks, not necessarily our teachers. So the problem with that is many of our classified managers do not have background or training in coaching or advising, support, mentoring. So what I found, I really took an emphasis to say, we have a gap here and we really need to help work with our classified managers to support our classified staff. So I did a lot of work with them, training, coaching. We went through coaching models and leadership. We spent a lot of time focused on that. And in that time, I started developing more of a reflective model of evaluation. My belief is we don’t necessarily always treat our classified staff as professionals. We don’t involve them in the work of the school. We don’t bring them when we talk about student achievement, yet I would argue they’re vitally important.

[00:23:49.630] – Matt
Having a clean campus and having a well-run campus and the people who do the real work on our campus are extremely vital. So even way back when I was a principal, before I used to, when we had talk about student achievement or we looked at data, I always had my classified staff with us and said, and they said, “why are we here?” I said, “because you’re extremely important.” So I’ve always felt this. And in constructing this evaluation, it was really about thinking about treating folks like professionals, but helping them be reflective like we do teachers. Thinking about goals. What do the goals look like rather than what we find in the state of California, certainly, and around classified evaluations is a checkbox. Did you do your work? Did you run the trash? And it’s all of these checkboxes without any reflection and without ways that I as a manager can support growth and development. So in shifting into this role, I thought, wow, what a great opportunity to start, you know, implementing some of the work that we did here. So I meet with my classified staff as well as met with our other assistant principals, meet with classified staff, the ones they oversee, to create goals, to think about what they hope to accomplish, some of the outcomes that they want to accomplish, and really approach it from a perspective of, again, they immediately think, why are we doing this?

[00:25:29.110] – Matt
Because you’re professionals, because you’re vital, it’s important, and we wanna help you grow your growth and development and support. So we meet, we set, we create goals, and we think about what goals look like for each of our classified positions and what that might look like in collecting evidence -when I’m going into a classroom – what evidence am I looking for? And we talk about that. What does evidence look like for a custodian? What does evidence look like for an instructional assistant? What does it look like for my office managers? And we talk about some things that are really important to us and things that we’re looking for. And the beauty is we have found a lot of really good improvements and ownership in the work that people are doing. And from our perspective, it’s not just when we’re thinking about having them reflect or giving feedback, it’s not just, well, the class wasn’t clean. Here’s some evidence. As evidenced by, coming in in the morning and seeing 5 pieces of trash or seeing floors not swept or student learning environments not optimal as evidenced by…We think about ways to capture evidence.

[00:26:58.770] – Matt
And for us, when we start focusing on the evidence, it’s no longer personal, right? Just as we do with coaching teachers, it takes it away from being personal. I did something, it’s focusing on the evidence. Again, I believe kind of lowers that effective filter. And there’s no debate, we collected this evidence, but it’s not about that. How can we improve, right? What does improvement now look like? So it’s been fascinating to watch our classified staff really, I think their mindset has shifted one to really reflect on what they want, how they want to improve, how they can improve. But also just the fact that I feel like because they’re thinking and reflecting and being treated like professionals, we’ve seen just a different culture on our campus and this, hey, I’m an important piece to be on this campus. It’s important for me. I serve a role greater than, you know, what I believed in the past. Like, I’m important to this. And if I don’t do this and do this well, then we’re not gonna thrive as a school. And I think that has been a huge thing for me and something I wanna continue to explore with some growth and development tools and some rubrics around this area.

[00:28:22.810] – Matt
So it’s been exciting to see, and again, one of those work-in-progress things that we wanna continue to grow.

[00:28:30.750] – Steve
As I was listening, this thread was running through my mind that I’d be using to kind of close us out here. And it was connecting reflection with learning. So all the top of things we talked about are ways to create increased reflection that brings about that increased learning. But you pulled a new word in here for me to add to it, and that is ownership, which I think then completes if there’s a circle here, the reflection leads to learning, leads to ownership, which leads to continued reflection. And it makes it a pretty neat cycle.

[00:29:15.590] – Matt
Yeah, I was going to say a nice cycle there. I’m with you. I think of cycles and how do we close loops, how do we continue loops. And I think you’re right. And I think, again, I get back to, when you say ownership, I think of that accountability, this internal accountability. If we’re all working together, we’re all pulling our weight and we’re working on behalf and we know I’m doing this because the person next to me is counting on me – they count on me and they believe in me. And I think the more we can create that type of culture, that we’re in this together better we can. Yesterday I had, I’ll leave you with this. Interesting, take it back to students. We had some physical altercations 2 days ago and then yesterday, what people believed was a physical altercation and students, kids, middle school, they get physical. I don’t condone it, but I understand, but my problem with it was, kids all started running to it, which creates a bigger problem. So I immediately get on the intercom and said, we are a family, we’re accountable to one another, we have to look at one another and take care of one another.

[00:30:35.830] – Matt
And then followed that up with a letter to my families to say the same thing. This is what happened. We’re a family, we’re accountable to one another, and as a family, speak to your children about this type of behavior. And to me, I think we try to create this culture in all aspects of the work that we do, that we are accountable, that we’re working together, we are a family, and that we’ve found our culture has changed completely. Part of me coming here was this campus needed a culture change. There was no – there’s no secret sauce, there’s no magic pill that we take. It’s just a matter of, I felt, you know, creating that accountability, creating that ownership as you suggested, and, and really looking at one another and saying, I got you. So that’s what we’re attempting to do, and I feel like we’re in a really, really positive direction this year. And it’s – you can feel it on our campus and ask people from from last year to this year, how much different it feels. And I said, it’s all the same players, right? We’ve created a little different structure, that different way of looking at it and accountability and ownership.

[00:31:57.000] – Matt
And people are rising to that, and it feels really good.

[00:32:01.270] – Steve
It illustrates the difference between accountability and responsibility. Because you have the ownership, you put the accountability on yourself. So other people aren’t holding you accountable. Other people may hold you responsible, so whether it’s the teacher in the classroom, whether it’s the classified staff, whether it’s the administrative leadership, whether it’s the students, and even you extended it to the parents, is accountability comes from ownership. And so you use the reflection and the learning. You closed it all out for me with that. That’s great.

[00:32:40.620] – Matt
This is why I love talking to you. I can say things and you tell me what it actually means and what I’m actually doing. So I certainly appreciate that. You’re my coach.

[00:32:52.440] – Steve
You put great insights out there. I value it. Matt, before closing out here, how can listeners who maybe have a question on something that they heard in the podcast and they want to follow up with you, what’s the easiest way for them to do that?

[00:33:06.780] – Matt
Yeah, appreciate it. So I have a consulting company that I think is probably the best, leadershipnexus.com. So Leadership Nexus is how I do a lot of my side work. I would love to say email my work mail, but it’s, it’s so jam-packed.

[00:33:26.910] – Steve
I got it. We’ll put that link to your site.

[00:33:31.270] – Matt
Yeah, my website is in there and I always encourage people to reach out.

[00:33:37.370] – Steve
Alright. Have a great day.

[00:33:38.670] – Matt
Yeah, you too.

[00:33:39.490] – Steve
Bye-bye.

[00:33:40.440] – Matt
Bye-bye.

[00:33:42.930] – Steve
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn @SteveBarkley or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

 

In an earlier blog exploring the facilitation of PLC sessions, I identified that one of the purposeful elements facilitators should focus on is the ending of a PLC meeting.

Tight timelines, such as the start of the next class period, can lead to rushed endings that at times leave members feeling stressed with what was left “in the air” or sensing that their time was just wasted. That blog suggested these ending strategies for PLC facilitators:

• Cue the close– By cuing members to be narrowing the conversation, the likelihood of ending with things “up in the air” can be decreased.
• Call for the decision– Is the group under a fixed deadline for a decision to be reached in this meeting or is there time to leave the meeting to explore further and decide at the next meeting? Is the decision a critical one and time is available for coming to a consensus or is a majority view decision agreeable to members.
• Outline next steps and open questions– If a decision was reached and action is to begin; it is critical that next steps with a suggested timeline are stated. If the decision was delayed, what are the questions that still need to be explored? What research does the group desire to gather? Nothing is worse than starting the next meeting with different expectations of what was agreed to be done or data to be collected and brought to the meeting.

       “Most teams don’t struggle with ideas—they struggle with ownership and follow-through”

(Karin Hurt and David Dye)

A blog post by Karin Hurt and David Dye adds the critical elements of ownership and commitment to the “ending conversation.  They describe a situation most of us have experienced. You’ve been in a meeting that seemed productive. There was great discussion and lots of agreement. But two days later, no one’s sure exactly who owns what. Someone says, “Wait—was I supposed to do that?”

Hurt and Dye suggest creating a habit of ownership into team meetings. Each PLC conversation could end with a summary of “Who will do what by when—and how will we know?” When this is a ritual part of the ending of PLC sessions, it is not interpreted as micromanaging but rather as a focus on making decisions that stick.

Here is an example of a PLC meeting wrapping up.

Middle grade teachers from ELA, science, social studies, and math have been discussing how to reinforce writing expectations across their courses. They’ve looked at recent student samples, identified inconsistent expectations, and explored the idea of agreeing on two schoolwide writing habits students will focus on everywhere:

• Clear sentence structure
• Evidence-based explanations

Facilitator: “Here’s what I’ve heard so far: We’d like students to experience consistent expectations for clear sentence structure and evidence-based explanations, no matter the subject. It sounded like everyone agrees that starting small—with two shared habits—feels manageable.”

Facilitator: “Before we leave today, are we ready to say, ‘Yes, to the two writing habits being reinforce over the next semester? Is there anything we need to look at before making it official?”

(Seeing positive nods, the facilitator continues.)

Facilitator: “Great. Let’s map out the ‘who will do what by when—and how we’ll know,’ just to make sure we’re aligned.”

• “Who wants to take the lead on creating the one-page student-friendly visual we all said would be helpful? (English teacher volunteers)
• “Thank you. What’s a realistic timeline?” (Teacher responds: ‘I can have a draft by next Tuesday.’)
• “Perfect. We’ll all look at it next meeting.”
• Facilitator: “We said it might help to bring a few samples from each subject after students have worked on the two habits. What number feels doable? (Team agrees on three samples per teacher.)
• Facilitator: “Great. When do we think we could have those?” (Team agrees: one month after implementation)
• Facilitator: “Everyone felt comfortable introducing the two habits in their own way. Would it help if at the next meeting in two weeks, we each shared a thirty-second reflection—what we did , what we noticed, any student responses?” (Team agrees.)

If PLCs have minutes taken and distributed following each meeting, another reminder for individual commitments is communicated. Part of the minutes should be spelling out the agenda for the next meeting. This communication of expectations creates the opportunity for trust to build among PLC partners.

What would be the benefits of ALL students being taught and coached to develop leadership skills? Maureen Chapman and James Simons, authors of, “Leaders of the Class,” share the needs, benefits, and processes for students to leverage motivation, perseverance, communication, and collaboration. Consider how to build stronger, healthier relationships with students as they discover their potential as purposeful, impactful leaders.

Educators grow their own leadership skills as they develop other’s leadership.

Visit Maureen and James’ website here.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.000] – Steve [Intro]
Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.

[00:00:29.720] – Steve
“Leader-full” Classrooms and Schools. Do you believe that leadership can be taught, modeled, coached, and developed? Do you believe that all students and teachers should be building their leadership skills and mindsets? Do you believe we all benefit from a leadership culture? Our podcast guests today hold those beliefs. Maureen Chapman and James Simon are the co-directors at CORE Creative Partners and the authors of Leaders of the Class. They both bring years of school-based experience to their work supporting educators in building their own and their students’ potential as purposeful, impactful leaders. Welcome Maureen and James. Thank you.

[00:01:16.460] – James
Thank you, Steve. Happy to be here today.

[00:01:16.460] – Maureen
Thank you so much. We’re so happy to be here, Steve.

[00:01:18.700] – Steve
Glad you’re here. I’m wondering, for a starter, in the experiences that you’ve both had as teachers and as school leaders, what do you think it is that pointed you in the direction of all – and I want to… that’s be my focus word throughout our conversation today, this idea of “all” students developing leadership potential.

[00:01:42.420] – James
That’s a great question, Steve. I would say In my personal experience, I had moments as a kid where I was tapped on the shoulder and recognized as a leader, an opportunity to have a role in a school play or be a captain on a sports team. And I also just felt a sense of belonging in school. I really enjoyed school. I tended to find success through academic work. And becoming an educator was an opportunity to widen my perspective and realize, oh, that is not everyone’s experience. I remember my first year as an English teacher sitting on the floor with essays just sprawled out all over the rug, and my wife was looking at some of the scores, and she said, “Oh, my gosh, you’re mean!” Like me, she had tended to see academic success in school and just assumed, yeah, these are the kinds of grades that come back on essays. I had to say to her, “No, when you’re working with 100 kids, there’s some kids at any given moment who are thriving, some kids who are doing all right, and some kids who are really struggling.” And so I think early on, that was helpful learning for me.

[00:03:06.100] – James
And then more and more in my work, I found I was gravitating towards those kids who are not finding a sense of belonging, who are not experiencing the success that they deserved. Early in my career, I switched to become a dean of students, and then I was later a principal. And in those roles, I was the ambulance driver. When there was a crisis, when there needed to be someone showing up rapidly to the scene, that was me. I had the privilege of sitting with individual students, sitting with families when they were really struggling in different ways. I quickly realized the more I got to know these individuals, just how profound their potential was. Time and time again, I would be experiencing this cognitive dissonance where I was in the staff room hearing teachers talk about some demon child who is making it impossible for anyone to learn. Then 10 minutes later, I would be sitting in my office with this child and seeing the spark in their eye and hearing how smart, how caring, how charismatic these individuals were. I would think, whoa, you could be leading the world if you just believed that you had that potential, and if those around you believed that you had the potential, and with that belief, I know you’re capable of building the skills that would back up that belief.

[00:04:45.410] – James
There’s no reason that you shouldn’t be the star of the play, the captain of the team, the student who is in the front row with their hand just miles high in the sky. And so I think that is a big part of what drew me to this work of how can I help every kid see in themselves what I am seeing in them.

[00:05:09.400] – Steve
You’ve given me a whole bunch of questions, but I want to catch Maureen’s response to that first.

[00:05:16.600] – Maureen
Yeah. James and I met by teaching on the same middle school team. Then we also both found ourselves later in formal leadership roles. I think this idea that everyone’s a leader is a little bit of distance when you think about the captain of the team or the star of the play, because that’s one person. But what does it mean for everyone to feel like a leader? I taught required middle school Latin, so I had 90 middle school students who are wondering why in the world this terrible thing had happened to them. [laughter] And some of them didn’t think it was a terrible thing. Some kids came first day of school, Percy Jackson under their arm, super excited. And then my job was to not let the other kids feel like, oh, this class is only for them, and to really have them believe me when I said, we are all going to be Latin stars in here. In this room, we’re going to bring out our inner nerd, and we’re going to do the thing. And so that looks different ways for different kids for them to know that I believed in them and that I wanted to hear their answer, and I wanted them to know so that we were only successful if we were all successful.

[00:06:28.960] – Maureen
And when I became as a school leader myself, I think what I came to appreciate about my own areas for growth was a lot of the own personal emotions that would get in the way when I was supposed to have a hard conversation, if I was supposed to share that something was upsetting me, if I was supposed to just, not even in an upset way, but just to give feedback after a classroom observation. I was so worried that somebody wouldn’t like me or that I would become too emotional in those conversations. It was helping me relate to what students are experiencing in the classroom all the time when they’re worried to raise their hand and take the academic risks they need to take in order to make the mistake and grow and learn. For me, those particular sorts of leadership skills to have the hard conversation, it just felt debilitating at times. I know I need to have this conversation, and I’m just a knot in my stomach dreading it. I didn’t have any training on that. And James and I really supported each other. And I think we had different areas of strength or comfort.

[00:07:36.860] – Maureen
But that was something he really helped me practice and just do. And so I would gain the experience and realize, no, I’m still safe or no, this person actually on the other side, I’m not trusting them enough to engage in this conversation with me. It was something that I needed to grow in. And so I think part of what’s really important to me in this book and in this work is building the emotional intelligence and those sorts of skills you need to have the conversations you need to have to feel better and to repair relationships or to serve kids or to serve the others in the world that you want to serve with your leadership. Why are we waiting until people are adults to get into it when those emotions in particular are so present and what make us so human. And also we see it again and again in coaching that people can really feel debilitated by just stuck in an emotion that is unpleasant and just feeling maybe ashamed of having them rather than knowing what to do. I think building some of those skills through the academic work so kids can be successful, I think also sets them up to have the impact in the way that their leadership is hopefully going to let them shine and the things that they care about shine as they get older.

[00:08:51.200] – Steve
I want to check my thinking with you. As I’m listening to the two of you, it’s striking me that our traditional school approach, our traditional classroom approach, has too few opportunities for too few students to practice, exhibit, and learn leadership.

[00:09:18.080] – James
I would agree with that. I’ve been in so many classes where the teacher will say, “Who wants to bring down the attendance sheet?” The number of hands that go up in the air is comical. It just illustrates how few opportunities there are for kids to take a meaningful role, to help out in some way. We are motivated to contribute to our social group, and particularly during adolescence. Through evolution, we survived because of our social impulses. We stuck together so we could find food and find protection. During adolescence, that impulse that has served all humans so well for thousands and thousands of years becomes even greater. You’re no longer this adorable baby that everyone’s going to protect just because of how Pixar cute you are. Suddenly, you need to demonstrate your worth to the group. When you’re sitting with a group of young people, they want to help out, they want to lead, but there are so few opportunities. So yes, when we are talking about student leadership, we are talking about student engagement. A culture of leadership is a culture where everyone is doing something. We’re not just listening. We’re not just filling in blanks in a worksheet.

[00:10:53.120] – James
We are communicating. We are collaborating. We are moving around the room making meaning. And so, yes, it is about leadership, but it is also about academics. It is about an academic setting where we are all engaged and active learners.

[00:11:13.500] – Steve
So it is leader-full.

[00:11:15.720] – James
That’s right, yeah.

[00:11:18.800] – Steve
Maureen, I’m hearing the SEL, executive functioning directions that schools are taking or wanting to take would connect with the leadership development?

[00:11:34.540] – Maureen
Absolutely. I think it’s a really astute observation. This work has been around since ancient times. We hear from forever, people considering moral development or character development or whole child development or college and career readiness and civic readiness and whatever you want to call it. But the stuff that makes us able to show up in the world the way we want to show up, to do hard things, including the academic hard things that every kid has the right to become a powerful learner so they can make the impact. But to be able to face those hard things requires you to draw upon your inner stuff. And that is so worthy. And academics are just one arena in which we can encounter hard stuff that gives us the opportunity to reflect upon who we are and how we’re bringing ourselves to hard things. So many schools, especially in the pandemic, sprung up with social emotional learning programs, and then they were trying really hard. I mean, just people working so hard to get 30 minutes once a week. So we could do this off the shelf curriculum so we can try to do something to help kids.

[00:12:53.270] – Maureen
This is how James and I came to found this consultancy. Our consultancy is named CORE, Creative Partners, and CORE is Latin for heart. We’re trying to make an impact and move the needle a bit on contributing to a culture in which people love school. I think that these SEL programs are also trying to get at that. I think the way that we want to contribute in service of that need is how to do it in your classroom where we spend most of the minutes anyway, and how to provide teachers who are… I always wanted to be a teacher. My dad’s teacher, my sister’s a teacher. This profession means everything to me. To see how much suffering there was for teachers who wanted to do that work when kids were really struggling and are really struggling, but feeling overwhelmed, that things were disconnected, they’re happening outside of the classroom. They didn’t write it. It’s not graded. Everyone knows it’s a joke, or it’s not enough. We wanted to offer something that made sense in the secondary classroom because the primary school classroom is just developmentally different with SEL, and it’s more about that morning circle and that discrete lesson on being a good friend, et cetera.

[00:14:07.060] – Maureen
In secondary, where you’re supposed to weave it in, how do you do that in a way that doesn’t take too long? You’ll have to have time to do all your academics, but it does give the space to sequentially build those skills through the year so that by the end of the year, it is really a student-led classroom where students are really feeling and seeing the growth that only happens when you do not too much at once. If you’re doing everything all at once, it almost feels like nothing’s important and you’re not moving in any way. So this book really offers a sequenced set of units. You could just do one of them. You could pick one. It’s really flexible. But if you did them in sequence, they naturally build so that students can really see their growth over time, and they’re tracking that growth in little quick ways. They can look back and say, wow, this is what I thought at the start of the year. And here’s how I’m seeing myself now as a leader in this room. I’m not the only leader, but I’m also believing in my peers as leader and intentionally building those beliefs so that students are safe with each other.

[00:15:09.820] – Steve
As I work through the book, you talk about four foundational leadership skills and four foundational conditions. I’m wondering if one of you would give us a run-through of the foundational practices and the foundational conditions. Which one should go first? In that sequence, which goes first?

[00:15:33.560] – James
Let me first share the practices, and then Maureen, you can fill in the conditions and anything else I’ve inevitably missed. The book presents a framework for building the skills that students need for motivation, perseverance, communication, and collaboration in the secondary classroom. And so there’s a unit related to each of those competencies. And in each unit, there is a specific practice, as you named, Steve, and also a specific condition that the class in particular is focusing on. Ideally, a teacher is pairing these units with their academic units and finding logical places to integrate the leadership routine teams that will help students gradually build their skills over time. So the four practices are, in motivation, students focus on the skills of reflecting and setting goals.

[00:16:47.140] – Steve
Two biggies. Those are both really big issues.

[00:16:50.000] – James
They are really big ones. And there’s a lot of research about how hard it is for us to just sit quietly with our thoughts, to really tune into what our bodies are telling us. There is so much noise around us. There is music and podcasts and videos and food. If we’re looking to be distracted from how we’re feeling and what we’re thinking, there are a million ways to do so. And so we really build in deliberate practice in reflecting. So you’ve engaged in some academic endeavor. Let’s take a minute and reflect, how did that go? What were your strengths during that time? What were your struggles. And we really believe in the same way that you would build up one’s reading skills. You wouldn’t say, you’re learning to read, go read for 45 minutes. Similarly, reflection should be in short, manageable bites. And over time, someone may finally have capacity to sit down and eat a full meal of reflection. But early on, it’s like, let’s just do some quick hits. And so early on, we’re reflecting on our motivation, and we’re setting a goal related to the academic work. And then through the subsequent units, individuals keep practicing those skills of reflection and goal setting tied to very specific academic endeavors.

[00:18:34.420] – James
And then in the second unit, perseverance, the leadership practice is experimenting with strategies. So now we’ve decided what is motivating us to pursue success in this class. But when something gets in the way of us and our goals, what are we going to try? And so classes co-construct strategy banks and individuals decide hat are the strategies they want to experiment with? And so kids are really empowered to be driving their own learning. It isn’t the teacher saying, whenever you’re distracted, do this. It is the whole community saying, what would work for you? What do you want to try? Let’s see how that goes. And then let’s track our data to see what is working, what isn’t, what do we want to keep, what do we want to throw out, what do we want to change? Those first two practices are really based in a level of collaboration and sharing, but also our individual pursuits. This is my goal. This is my strategy. In the back half of the framework, it is much more about, now that I’ve built these skills of self-awareness and of self-management, how can I contribute to this team? And so the third big unit is communication.

[00:19:55.280] – James
And here, individuals are practicing exchanging feedback with their peers, with their teacher. And then in the culminate and collaborate unit, students get together on an authentic, academic, collaborative task, and they practice the final routine, which is advocating for self and others.

[00:20:20.400] – Maureen
And then with the conditions, we can’t just expect to go through the motions. There are units you can follow step by step in the book. But if we’re not thinking deeply really about the conditions of our room, we aren’t going to be ready for that to actually go well. So the conditions that need to be in place, and it’s actually something really useful if you’re working with a coach or you’re working with a grade-level team, maybe your middle school eighth grade team is trying this together, and there are special directions on what to adjust if you’re doing this with the whole team. So kids aren’t like, “We already did this.” But it really is useful to process those conditions upfront as a whole, but then any each unit to really focus on one. So one is, as I reference, the safety to take risks. Students need us – and if you talk to kids, they’ll tell you what they need from you, which is to address it. If somebody does so little, it’s roll their eyes at them because they’re so invested in their peers’ perception of them. And so if anybody might do something that impacts their sense of status and you don’t address it, they’re going to shut down.

[00:21:26.950] – Maureen
So we need to feel safe enough in secondary years to to give the wrong answer, et cetera. We need belief in self and others. If we don’t believe that that teacher cares about me or thinks I can do it, and you can spot that quickly, oftentimes, if the belief isn’t there. And that’s often just a reflection of our own belief in ourselves as being able to reach the kid that seems so hard. If we feel threatened that it might make us look like a bad teacher, we might subconsciously put it to the student’s fault. It’s not productive. How do we just keep coming back to a belief believing stance and demonstrate that belief in each other. And then another one is motivating work. Is the work feeling worthy of doing? Are there ways I can tie the work to things I care about? And then the last one is opportunities to lead. If students are sitting and listening all the time, when are they supposed to develop leadership skills? They’ve got to get into groups, talk to each other, have new ideas, be heard, see things changing because of what they’re saying. So in the units, there are structures where before the unit, there is a prep the unit section where teachers, they do things like rotate the roles or change the objective on the board, but they’re also reflecting on their own experiences with those things.

[00:22:43.100] – Maureen
Do I believe…Why do I believe in myself as a leader? How do I believe in my students? And then they’re also looking at the unit ahead to see what are those key points in the unit I have planned where students will get to encounter this leadership competency. So if it’s communicate, what are the communications coming up? And if you’re doing that with a coach, maybe there is a chance to add more than you had planned. Or what are the opportunities for students to persevere? Where does this unit get hard enough that kids will get frustrated, which should happen when we’re becoming powerful learners? Where are those key difficult points where I’m going to then offer that reflection to go with it? How did you persevere through this, et cetera? Those talking points or those prep the unit sections offer some good questions that are helpful to process with the team if you’re lucky enough to have a coach or a team. And then there are team discussion questions at the end, too, which allow you to either just try those exercises students did as a team, and they’ll learn a lot about each other, or do a quick case study on a student who is really struggling with motivation or perseverance.

[00:23:49.080] – Maureen
And then it just guides you through some steps of how you can really use that as a useful way to think about it. Because we offer some scaffolds knowing that from our instructional coaching, some kids will need more. They’re not just going to magically now be the most motivated kid ever. And we have four or five things that we’ll usually try. But it’s so useful to talk it out in your school with other people who know you and know your kids and where you feel the safety to take the risk to say, “This didn’t go well, and what else can I try?”

[00:24:19.880] – Steve
As I’m listening, actually, I wrote the phrase down and it jumped in my head, but I’m almost hearing leading myself is the piece that the learners, that you have learners dealing with. Generally, you think about leading others, but I’m hearing leading myself in there. Does that make sense?

[00:24:43.420] – Maureen
Are you thinking about that for the teacher as well when you’re saying that?

[00:24:46.960] – Steve
Now you’re moving it to another level. I’m almost always sure that as a teacher, whatever it is I’m teaching, I’m learning more than the students are, so that’s there for sure. But as I was listening to the two of you walk through the elements, I’m seeing a learner becoming empowered him or herself, which is what I would call leading myself. Then because of that, I’m in a role for my leadership to be shared with others.

[00:25:16.080] – Maureen
Absolutely. Some of the things that you just come back to when you do different leadership research is you do have to love yourself to persevere through – to look in the face of your mistakes and your academic failures and to say, okay, what’s next? You can only do that with a healthy dose of self-love and self-compassion. And so we hope that this book contributes to a sense of identity development in these years that is a healthy balance of, I can keep doing better, and I’m already enough. And then you can have that confidence to lead yourself and know that you can do that safely with others because you are on your own trajectory, reaching your beautiful leadership potential.

[00:26:08.980] – James
Yeah. I would add, I’ve worked with many kids who struggled to find motivation in the academic setting. Sometimes it’s tempting to go, this kid is just not motivated, or even this kid’s lazy. So often that child is very motivated just in a different setting. They’re home taking care of their sibling or their home home playing a video game till 2:00 in the morning. I’ve worked with a lot of kids who love gaming. And part of that is because you’re the main character when you’re playing a video game. And so many kids come to school and they feel like what they call a non-player character, an NPC. You’re just in the background. You’re sitting there and the teacher is the main character. And so you’re absolutely right. This framework is an invitation for you to go, this is my game. I’m the one holding the controller and making the shots. The same, as Maureen mentions, goes for teachers. Some of the reasons that SEL curricula don’t always take off is because teachers don’t feel ownership. They take it off the shelf and they go, okay, I got 30 minutes. I’m going to read this script in a robotic voice, and go…

[00:27:27.210] – James
Sometimes you’ll hear teachers go, “They want me to tell you.” As soon as you hear it, you’re going to say, hey, you’re in the curriculum, you know you’re in trouble. With this curriculum, we offer a framework, we offer routines, and then we empower the teacher to lead that curriculum. You decide, where would this routine go? How often do you want to use it? What would it look, sound, and feel like for you? Like the student, you are the leader of your game. So yeah, I think that’s a really insightful observation that you’re making.

[00:28:03.220] – Maureen
And which of my stories about myself with perseverance through learning this subject do I want to insert? It really offers a chance for teachers to select from their own class and their own lives what will go in there. So it is really coming through in an authentic voice, and it takes a little more time for the teacher, but I think it’s really enjoyable for them to do that because we hold these stories and we don’t always see a spot for them to come through. But taking that story-based leadership stance is such a common theme in leadership. The right story can carry a lot of weight in building the momentum in the room so that you can step aside and the kids will pick it up from there. So, yeah, the adult as the lead learner in the room and the lead leader, as we often call them, we hope that this book is also rewarding for them, not only in their own individual thought process about themselves as leaders, but also in the relationship that will become stronger with their students and that the work will be more rewarding because it’s this space where these kinds of deeper and really important conversations come out appropriately.

[00:29:13.560] – Steve
The other thing that’s striking me as I’ve been listening to you and got a chance to walk through your book – a lot of schools I work with have a profile of a graduate that sounds really great, but I’m hard-pressed often to find what people are doing about it. I get the sense that if I were to sit down with the school’s profile of a graduate and your book, I’d find a lot of alignment, providing a way for teachers to focus on that particular element or many of the elements of a portrait.

[00:29:56.120] – Maureen
Yes, we definitely see that, and we really value value cohesion. I think that’s why we want to put these skills cohesively into a classroom. But when we partner with a school, we really do pay attention to their particular language and match it up. It’s usually not hard. Leader is usually somewhere or any of the words of these units. But how do we just make sure the language is landing cohesively? And so then we also do have little measures, whether it’s a student report or an observation report. There are little assessments, too, where you could track progress toward, here’s how we know whether we’re doing a good job of having kids believe in themselves as leaders. In one school, we did a three-year project and just ask kids that question as question one, are you a leader? Why or why not? You can just see who’s saying yes and who’s saying no, and is that changing? It just gives you something a little bit more specific where we often don’t have anything specific when we’re talking about the profile of a learner and then our graduate, and then it’s just floating around sounding good. People are all, I’m sure teachers are spotting it for what it is if it’s not really living.

[00:31:05.560] – Maureen
This helps us – if we want to do a good job, if we take this stance, everyone wants to do a good job. Kids want to do a good job if we show them what we’re looking for. Teachers want to do a good job in building that vision, too. This gives you some really specific things you can try and feel like, okay, we’re making progress. I’m doing the thing, and it’s feeling good, and it makes sense in my class.

[00:31:26.000] – James
I’ll just add, we have a lot of experience with College and future planning support. We each oversaw in the school where we worked, the College and Future Planning counselor. Maureen developed and oversaw an advisory strand that was a 5 through 12 curriculum preparing individuals for what awaits after 12th grade. She also launched a senior internship program. And in our consultancy, we partner with many schools to support their own College and Future readiness programs. And it’s very important to us that what is happening every day leading up to graduation connects to what is going to be happening every day after graduation. As Maureen was talking, I was just remembering a student that we both worked very closely with who was so shut down in school. The number of disciplinary hearings I attended with him, the number of dropout prevention programs that the two of us sat in on, the number of just in the hall conversations of what do you need are just too many to count. I remember a few years after he graduated, he came back in a police officer’s uniform with this big grin on his face, and he said, “I love this work.”

[00:32:56.600] – James
I was just like, I knew it. I knew there was a spot somewhere in there. I’ve reflected a lot about what more could have we done so that it did not take this individual so long to realize he has a place in this world. He is good and he can contribute to increasing the amount of goodness in the world. And there’s so many ways to contribute. And I really do believe a framework like this helps us ignite that spark for each individual just sooner. So you don’t have to wait years and years and years for someone to come back and say, I finally found my place. I found my people. I found my purpose. We want them to be finding it every day every grade level in every class.

[00:33:48.320] – Steve
You caught my attention when you first used that big word, “all” with the students and leadership. It’s been great having this conversation with you, having that reinforced. Before we close out, anything else about the book, Leaders of the Class, that you didn’t get a chance to lay out here to folks, or the work that you’re doing in your core creative partners that you’d like folks to know about?

[00:34:20.920] – James
Yeah, so I’ll jump in. We are Boston-based, but we travel all over, and we love being in different regions, different districts, different schools, and just learning from educators because everything we hear and see when we’re working with educators helps us support others in different settings more effectively. We do workshop series and PLCs and keynotes and consulting projects. Basically, we just look to see where is support needed. We really believe in this framework as a way to provide that support. You can adopt the whole framework. You can pick one routine. There are so many entry points. We would love for people to read the book, “Leaders of the Class” from SolutionTree. We would love for people to practice those routines and share with us how it’s going. You can reach us. Our website is corecreativepartners.com. Each of our emails are james@corcreativepartners.com or maureen@corcreativepartners.com. We’re always so thrilled to hear from fellow educators.

[00:35:27.900] – Maureen
I am obsessed with getting messages. I always have been. Find me on LinkedIn, email me. I promise I’ll write you back. We would love to hear if you’ve got the book, and if you have thoughts or you’re trying stuff out, we would be so grateful.

[00:35:39.760] – Steve
Terrific. Thanks so much, guys.

[00:35:41.140] – Maureen
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Steve. We really enjoyed the conversation.

[00:35:47.420] – Steve [Outro]
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Steve Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

Instructional Coaches and school administrators should be continuously mapping out how they support teacher leaders in their schools. Teacher leaders at grade levels or department chairs for curriculum, along with teachers leading programs or projects and those serving as mentors to new staff are all key to a school reaching its mission and vision of maximizing student success. Too often, there is no plan for the development of critical leadership skills and mindsets that are necessary for teacher leaders to support continuous teacher growth for a school staff. That lack of planning and process, I believe, also communicates a lack of value for the commitment and risk-taking teacher leaders assume.

Dr. Philhower – School as a Joyful Place podcast episode.

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In moments of disagreement or rising tension, conversations can easily stall or break down. That’s where a verbal skill called “supporting statements” can help. Early in my teacher leadership career, I learned how these statements act as a bridge—keeping the dialogue open and productive. A supporting statement doesn’t necessarily mean agreement; it reflects understanding. It communicates: “I hear you, and I respect that your thinking has value—even if I’m seeing things differently.”

Example

Teacher Statement: Parents need to provide the motivation and/or the requirement that their student complete the out-of-class assignments and homework.

Supporting statement Response: Parent engagement in students’ commitment to completing assignments provides strong support for greater student learning and confidence building. Some of our students’ parents are facing personal or financial struggles that can make consistent support more difficult.”

The real power of a supporting statement lies in what precedes it: listening—not surface listening, but what Marlene Chism and others call radical listening. Chism, in her article “Executive Communication: The Hard Skill Hiding in Plain Sight“, describes radical listening.

“Listening is easy when the message is agreeable. It’s harder when you’re challenged, provoked or triggered. That’s where radical listening comes in. Radical listening means staying grounded when your instincts scream to defend, dominate, or disengage. It means listening for alignment, not ammunition. It means pausing before reacting, so you can choose the right path forward. Radical listening is an act of self-management and self-regulation, which takes discipline and inner work. But that work pays off: Leaders who master radical listening can redirect conversations, coach more effectively and reduce reactivity in others.”

When we listen only to refute, debate, or convince, we miss opportunities to validate others’ experiences and perspectives. Supporting statements become almost impossible. But when we listen for alignment rather than ammunition, we open the door to real dialogue. We shift from reaction to reflection.

The first part of a supporting statement might sound like this:

“You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this, and I can see why you feel strongly about it.”

“You’re concerned about how fast this change is moving. That’s important for us to consider.”

“You’re raising a valid point about equity—thank you for surfacing that.”

These statements at times show agreement but more importantly they communicate respect. Respect paves the way for further thinking, deeper questioning, and mutual learning. In an earlier post, “Facilitating Productive Conflict,” I explored how conflict, when approached with curiosity rather than avoidance, can strengthen relationships and decision-making. The same principle applies here: supporting statements begin when we listen not just to what is being said, but to the meaning behind it. What values are being expressed? What experiences might be shaping this person’s perspective?

Chism states that radical listening is an act of self-management. That resonates with what I see in effective coaching and leadership: the best communicators aren’t the loudest or most convincing, they’re the most present. They slow the conversation down, they manage their emotions, and they make space for others.

The second part of the supporting statement provides information for the other person to consider. The slowing down and the respect for their response encourages them to listen and hopefully consider the additional information you provided. Let’s look back at the earlier example.

Teacher Statement: Parents need to provide the motivation and/or the requirement that students complete the out-of-class assignments and homework.

Supporting statement Response: Parent engagement in students’ commitment to completing assignments provides support for greater student learning and confidence building. (The teacher hears that you heard her thinking and that you recognize the important role parents can play) Some of our students’ parents are facing personal or financial struggles that can make consistent support more difficult.”   (Hearing the statement about some parents perhaps wanting to support but being overwhelmed with other issues and unable to have that engagement with schoolwork, may extend the teacher’s empathy.)

Another key to effective supporting statements is watching your connectors. Words like but or however can cancel out the respect or validation you’ve just offered. A post, “Practicing Effective Communication: ‘But’ vs. ‘And’ Statements,”  provides many examples of how replacing but with and can positively impact communications. Here is a very clear example:

“Sam, you made good progress this year, but I know you still can improve.”

Sam may tune out after “but.” The message feels like a backhanded compliment.

“Sam, you made good progress this year, and I know you can keep improving.”

“And” keeps the statement constructive and collaborative.

The use of “And” connects the two statements more positively and gives one a feeling of being on the same team. I have also found that I can end the first statement with a period, pause shortly, and then start the second statement.

As a coach, school leader, or team member, you can build your capacity for using supporting statements by asking yourself:

• What did I just hear that I can acknowledge as thoughtful, important, or heartfelt?
• What might this person need from me right now: validation, clarity, space to think aloud?
• Am I listening to understand—or to respond?

Supporting statements don’t end the conversation—they move it forward. Sincere, radical listening sets the stage for a supporting statement response. In times of change, disagreement, or uncertainty, the supporting statements is an essential leadership tool. It begins with listening.