Former classroom teacher, school administrator, and district-level leader, Angie Freese, works with educators as a facilitator, coach, practitioner, and mentor. She empowers educators’ efforts to interrupt antiquated and ineffective practices that only work for some to generate sustainable growth and performance for all. Angie is the founder of the Meant for More Collaborative, an organizational network committed to rejuvenating school systems by igniting creativity, inspiring hope, and investing in the power of human connection. Being a “meant for more leader” requires being grounded in the ideas of authenticity, bravery, and dignity.

Find Angie’s book, “Meant for More” here.

Email Angie: angie@meantformorementum.com

Find Angie on LinkedIn.

Find Angie on Instagram.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.290] – Steve [Intro]

Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.

[00:00:30.710] – Steve

Helping teachers see hope and possibilities with their students. Our podcast guest today is Angie Freese, the founder of the Meant For More Collaborative, an organizational network committed to rejuvenating school systems by igniting creativity, inspiring hope, and investing in the power of human connection. As a former classroom teacher, school and district-level leader, Angie now spends her time working alongside educators across all levels of organization, from classroom to boardroom. She works as a facilitator, coach, practitioner, and mentor. Angie empowers educators’ efforts to interrupt antiquated and ineffective practices that only work for some by revitalizing collaborative teams with the competency, skills, and tools required for sustainable growth and performance for all. Angie is also a Gallup-certified global strengths coach and the author of a recent book, “Meant for More: Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection.”

[00:01:46.980] – Steve

Welcome, Angie.

[00:01:48.610] – Angie

Thank you, Steve. I’m excited to be here today.

[00:01:51.570] – Steve

I’m wondering if you’d start with what led you to write meant for more.

[00:01:58.620] – Angie

This book was on my heart for a while, and I needed to write about the experiences that I was having working elbow to elbow with educators across the country because we are truly this fierce and bold and brave cohort of people who are relentless in our service to students and families that we’re so blessed to serve. And I wrote this book because I wanted to provide some refreshed thinking, new ideas, and even some encouragement and momentum to help our educator cohort reclaim and revitalize the true dignity of our profession, to mobilize our shared efforts, and to actually realize these visions of creating inclusive, brave spaces for each and every learner that we serve. And to do that, there needed to be some important questions asked. For example, do we know why our school is working for some kids and not for others? Do we know how to identify and then sustain practices that are working so that as leaders, we’re not mistakenly reallocating resources away from those efforts to improve other areas of our practice? Do we know how to take action to improve our effectiveness? And so these are just some sample questions that I wanted to put in the space and simply just start a conversation about it.

[00:03:40.940] – Steve

Well, the subtitle of your book is “Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection.” What does it mean for coaches and principals to guide real talk with the staff?

[00:03:57.330] – Angie

Well, one of the things that’s important to me is that we want feedback that we provide to students or adults to actually feed a meaning and productive way forward. So the idea of real talk emerged from my own experiences, having to navigate nuances and attempt to interpret what was actually being said in particular situations, which unfortunately, actually led me to overthink and spend my energy trying to interpret what someone was really saying versus we’re spending that same energy on the good work of collaboration and teamwork and monitoring our impact. So the whole essence of meant for more and what it means to be a meant for more classroom and what it means to be a meant for more leader is fundamentally grounded in the ideas of authenticity and bravery and dignity. When we talk about real talk, it’s validating experiences of others, honoring what is good and right and true in a system, and learning, intentionally designing spaces where we celebrate our wins, and we know what patterns of thinking and behavior enabled those results to happen. And similarly, we also know what’s hindering our work and blocking our progress. But we didn’t always know how to talk about it.

[00:05:19.320] – Angie

We didn’t know how to talk about it with truth and grace. And sometimes we are unsure how to talk about it with solution orientation, because what we see in front of us is the problem. And we sometimes are hesitant to turn around and see, well, what is it that’s really the root of that? And so how do we dig up that metaphorical dandelion, if you will, rather than just keep mowing it over in our practice to get rid of it? So the book is intending to create this necessary space for people to engage in patterns of thinking and behavior that truly create empowered and inclusive and brave classrooms for both students and adults.

[00:06:03.280] – Steve

So your book is based on six chapters that carry the critical focus points that you explore. And I’ll just name them off here for the listeners. Embracing Authenticity, Fostering Connection, Cultivating Curiosity, Empowering Voice, Nurturing Resilience, and Giving Grace. I’m wondering if you identify what you see as some of the most important items in those chapters for leaders to be modeling in their interactions with staff.

[00:06:41.370] – Angie

Sure. Let’s explore a few of these ideas more deeply. Let’s first start with this idea of authenticity, the idea of going beyond just be yourself and be who you are and everyone belongs here, by, as leaders, being intentionally intentionally inclusive, being intentionally inviting, and being real focused on creating these opportunities to bring people, meaningfully, into community together. One strategy that I have enjoyed to do this, and I actually use this often with new clients and new teams that I’m working with, is this idea of a four-square share. Now, don’t get too excited about the title because this is certainly one of these ideas that just organically developed as I was having a conversation with a team, and my brain just put it into four squares and then one of the participants referenced it as the Four Square Share and so the name was born, right? So I wish I could say that there was something wrong about that, but there wasn’t. So anyway, I love this idea because it actually comes from some opportunities to process what we’re learning about each other. So many people are familiar with tools like the Myers-Briggs or Disk or Color Theory or even something that I tend to lean towards, which is the strength finder tool from Gallup.

[00:08:17.740] – Angie

But I invite teams to consider four areas. The first is, what assets do I bring to this team? What’s my value? What do I already know about myself that’s nurturing into this space? The second area is, in what ways might I be misunderstood? Third, what are my hot buttons? Things that maybe upset me or frustrate me or really get me going, whether it’s in collaboration or professional learning or whatever professional environment. And then the fourth square is, what do I need to truly be at my best? And so when we’re going through this exercise, I invite people to do that four square individually. Then we start crafting our list together and reflecting back on, wow, look at all of the assets that our team brings to this space. Look at the needs that we have. And the way I draw it is so that the Assets is in the top left corner, and then the diagonal to the bottom right corner is the Needs. And so a reflective conversation to close is often, what assets are already in the room that would empower you and enable your needs to be met? Because my need might be someone else’s asset.

[00:09:39.090] – Angie

And similarly, then if we put the misunderstandings in the top right quadrant and connect it to the bottom left quadrant at the diagonal, which is the hot buttons, what ways am I misunderstood? Or I’m saying I think I misunderstood that actually is a hot button for someone else. And so that intentionality of the structure, the design, again, these things emerged organically, but it was just this powerful moment for this team. And now I love to recreate that experience with particularly new teams that I’m working with.

[00:10:12.820] – Steve

My experience would say that it’s way too uncommon for schools to look at tapping into colleagues as resources and strengths, and that in way too many schools, people are unaware of the strengths that their colleagues have that they could be tapping into.

[00:10:43.090] – Angie

Yeah. Isn’t that interesting? Isn’t it interesting that places that were designed to build community and foster relationships and prepare learners for whatever’s next, isn’t it interesting that places truly designed for community would not be curious about the members of their own community? And so these intentional conversations and dialog and the things we learn from those can only make us stronger.

[00:11:16.270] – Steve

Another area you’d be encouraging school leaders to be modeling for their staff, those same elements that you think are critical in a classroom.

[00:11:29.850] – Angie

Sure. Let’s go with this idea of connection. One of the most curious things to me is how principals, leaders, coaches, even superintendents walk into buildings and know kids by name, not just the adults, but they know the kids by name. And I think, Gosh, how did they do that? Well, it was an intentionality to be able to, first of all, be present in a space so that you can learn more than just who people are, but also what people are about, and to be able to think about the connections that you might be making with each individual. A strategy that actually the Making Caring Common Project out of Harvard University talks about and formalizes this strategy that perhaps we’ve all become familiar with, this idea of mapping student relationships relationships and really looking by name and by picture, who are the kids on our campus that have relationships with adults? What do we know about these learners? More than just their name. Sometimes I go into campuses and we map student relationships, and we know the name and we know the need, or we know the name and we know the label associated. But beyond that, we’ve not yet had the opportunity to learn about who that kid actually is.

[00:13:07.440] – Angie

What are their interests? What are their things that excite them? What are their passions? And similarly, we would want to do the same with each other as colleagues to move ourselves from this collegial and congenial relationship to being truly collaborative. So this idea of mapping student relationships, I explain it in more detail in the book, but this idea of really being crystal clear on which kids are being served through the power of connection in our campus and which do we need to be more intentional about creating those relationships with.

[00:13:43.600] – Steve

A key word that I frequently go to in my work is being known and knowing that you’re known. So the fact that you know me isn’t enough if I don’t know that you know me.

[00:13:57.330] – Angie

Well, and just to continue this conversation, how many times do we hear kids say, “you don’t know me,” right? When they’re in a conversation with an adult, and often it’s a more constructive conversation with adults, but you don’t know me. And in truth, the kid is right.

[00:14:17.610] – Steve

They called us on it.

[00:14:18.740] – Angie

Yeah. They did. And you know what? As adults, we don’t like that. We often have a more quick reaction, and perhaps It’s a reaction that we are not always proud of. But this idea of fostering connection as leaders, we as a principal, as a district director, you’ve got to model that, whether that’s wheeling around the Keurig and bringing people coffee in the morning and It’s getting to know people more than who they are as the educator, or it’s creating these intentional moments throughout the year. Again, not just this performative action of connecting with folks at the beginning of the year and then letting everybody do their work. It’s truly building this connection. We don’t all have to be best friends at work. I think sometimes we spin the pendulum too far, and we really try to build these deep and meaningful friendships and we sometimes mistakenly ostracize folks who just don’t want to participate in the milk and cookies that we’re having together at 4:00 PM on Friday or whatever it might be. I think there can be a healthy balance of how we foster these connections and relationships and how we define what that means and how we know that it’s good and true.

[00:15:39.920] – Steve

A lot of the listeners to this podcast are instructional coaches. I’m wondering if your work across all the buildings, and I’m sure you’re in buildings with instructional coaches, if you identify some special roles that you would see instructional coaches playing in building the school environment that you’re imagining?

[00:16:02.460] – Angie

Yeah. I’ll actually keep this one real simple. I think as instructional coaches, we’re there for a reason. We’ve often been master teachers or we’ve had success implementing certain strategies, demonstrating mindsets and skillsets that are in alignment, not just with the mission, but also we’re seeing the return on investment in our student performance and growth. But the simplicity here with the instructional coach is that in spite of the number of hats they wear or the misinterpretation of their position, we just want them to create a relationship with teachers so that they can learn together and grow together. That’s it. So if we can identify something that we want to learn about together and we normalize learning, that we’re not expecting just because we all came out of university or college, and we all have the teacher degree, that we’re all equally or equitably prepared to respond to the needs of the students and families in front of us. So if we can identify something that we want to learn about together and then create this partnership and set a goal, then we can grow together. And now we get away from that evaluative or judgmental mindset that erroneously is placed upon, instructional coaches.

[00:17:29.430] – Angie

But rather, we invite in this partnership. And when we learn together, good things happen. And just the conversations and the dialog that can come from that are truly powerful and truly meaningful because it creates this value to the relationship. It’s not just we’re in connection together, but it’s a valuable partnership, and we’re both taking something away that’s meaningful and that brings us joy from the experience. So this idea for our coaches to learn together and grow together with our teachers, and even to learn and grow up with your principal are really important ideas for us.

[00:18:12.610] – Steve

You’ve really provided a reinforcement for me because from time to time, I’m working with a system that’s hiring instructional coaches. And so their question will be what to look for. And the top of my list is somebody who exhibits in the interview their excitement about what they’re going to be able to learn when they step into this position. So it’s less about everything you know that you’re bringing to it and more about that learning. And so that instructional coach getting excited about the learning him or herself, I think is very similar to the teacher in the classroom getting excited about what we’re learning as a class.

[00:18:57.120] – Angie

Yeah. It’s a dangerous place to be in if we think that we’ve arrived. If we’re not sure that we have more to learn and that we’ve peaked in our knowledge, that’s a dangerous place. And so to practice and model that humility that I have something to learn. I might have something to share with you, but I will also have something to learn from you that will help me be a better coach to someone else as well. Those ideas are really important.

[00:19:25.130] – Steve

I’m wondering if you might provide a few important questions that school leaders should be asking themselves in order to assess where their school is at and where it should be going.

[00:19:41.480] – Angie

My experience has revealed districts and schools and teams do a great job, actually, of asking questions. It just might be that they’re not always the right questions or the most productive questions that will give us the answers that will truly inspire action and mobilize us to be able to move in the direction that we’re seeking. Perhaps let’s consider this from this question to that question as we engage in this part. For example, rather than asking what’s wrong, let’s ask what’s right. What’s working? Why is it working? And how do we identify the patterns and then further nurture those patterns to embed this work into our practice? That’d be a great first one to start with, because people get excited to do more of what they’re celebrating. And we want to do more to sustain these practices that are working. A second inquiry we might have is this idea of moving from, well, what data do we collect? What evidence do you have? To, how is the collection of that data benefiting students and improving educator practice? Because we have all the data in the world, and it’s all right there. There’s data, right? But it’s, how is that data feeding us?

[00:21:13.130] – Angie

How is that data informing us for what our next moves might be? And then perhaps here’s… I’m not sure how much I want to end with a zinger like this, but I’m just going to go for it, Steve because I think one of my biggest curiosities is why we keep saying the kids are at risk, or we keep identifying kids that are at risk when it’s the system that’s at risk. The system is getting the results it’s designed to, and that’s an old adage from years ago, and it’s still holding true today. So my assertion is that we would want to consider redirecting our language from the kids being at risk to actually examining and accepting how it may very well be our decisions and our policies and our protocols that are actually creating the very risk that we’re identifying for our students. And so asking ourselves what is it that we’re doing that’s putting our kids at risk is a very intense question. It is a meaningful question, however, and it is one that we must choose to acknowledge both what’s working and what’s risky about our decision making, our protocols, our system at large, so that we can try to interrupt that.

[00:22:45.780] – Angie

And so when we ask these types of questions, we might not always know exactly what to do right away. But now, at least, we have a starting place for what we need to be more curious about as we explore this idea of system system improvement and truly creating these brave and inclusive spaces for adults and kids alike.

[00:23:07.320] – Steve

So I’m big on the word hypothesis, and I’m thinking that’s the outcome of those kinds of questions you’ve just described. We may not know an answer, but we arrive at a hypothesis.

[00:23:21.810] – Angie

Yes. In chapter one of the manuscript, actually, is called, “Building Awareness to Rehumanize Our Profession.” Again, quite intentional with the language there. But towards the end of that chapter, I developed what I’m calling just a seven A’s protocol. And it really invites the reader to take some conversation back to their team that allows teams to authentically discuss inequities and systematic challenges. And I think the most important part of this tool is that the language is there on the page for us to lift into the dialog, right? Because these are hard conversations, and it’s really easy to get caught up in the “right” words to say or the actual language that we need to use, where a tool like this can just help to really kickstart a conversation and to lift the value of this dialog forward for all the teams and school leaders. And even I use this tool with the Superintendent as well as we think about truly addressing inequities or systematic challenges. And then it helps us outline not just what needs to be changed, but a truly authentic reason for the change, and then how kids will benefit when we make this change.

[00:24:50.460] – Angie

Those experiences, again, it’s in the very first chapter of the book, just as a protocol for interrupting those inequities and systemic barriers that we be facing.

[00:25:01.890] – Steve

Well, early in our conversation, I heard you use a word two or three times, and I decided to write it down because I was going to come back to it. And I think this is the right spot to come back to it. You use the word, “bravery” and the necessity for bravery. I’ve wondered if you might close us out with some thoughts around that word.

[00:25:25.500] – Angie

Sure. Well, let me first start by saying that I don’t have the definition of bravery. I mean, we can look it up in the dictionary. We can find a thesaurus to figure out other words that mean similar things to bravery. But for me, and how I offer this word and this idea into the meant for more classroom is to be bold enough, to be confident enough, and truly to understand that if I don’t engage in this space, in this conversation, that the risks of not having a conversation far outweigh the challenges I might face because I’ve done so. And I have to decide, what are the moments, what are the parts of the infrastructure that I’m working in that give me pause? And what are those moments where someone deserves to be emboldened and empowered and brave enough to step into a space and just create the spark to ignite the conversation? And truly, that is the intention behind Meant For More. This book is not a playlist from front to back. If you do all these things, you’re going to have great classrooms, right? Or you’re going to have great schools. But it is the evoking of ideas.

[00:27:06.290] – Angie

It’s intended to create perspectives and to generate ideas. And some of the stories that are captured in here are from brave educators who defied past practice, who ascended beyond status quo, and found themselves in these uncomfortable situations. But the risk of not doing something was just simply unacceptable. And so when we talk about bravery in this space, it is that. It’s feeling so called to engage, to connect, to ask the question that the consequences of that are things that we’re willing to overcome.

[00:27:54.880] – Steve

Yeah, it matches for me. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I’ve just loved the conversation, Angie. I wonder if you’d take a minute to tell listeners the best way they can follow you, find out more about your work and be able to find your book.

[00:28:11.660] – Angie

Sure. Absolutely. I would love to connect with folks, and you can find me on LinkedIn. I have a new Instagram handle that is a play off the title of my book. It’s called the Instagram handle is @meantformorementum. And you can also access me through the book. You can find that on the SolutionTree website as well as on Barnes & Noble and Amazon. I know Steve will be thoughtful about providing my contact information at the end as well for people to feel free to connect with me online. Send me an email. I would love to develop a partnership with you.

[00:28:52.720] – Steve

Thank you very much. Have a great day.

[00:28:54.470] – Angie

You too.

[00:28:58.510] – Steve

Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Steve Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

Angie Freese, author of Meant for More: Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection, explores her belief in educators’ potential. She supports educators to create classrooms where students can be brave, assured, and confident in their learning pathway. In this podcast she highlights authenticity, connection, curiosity, voice, resilience, and grace.

Find Angie’s book, Meant for More here.

Email Angie:  angie@meantformorementum.com

Connect with Angie on LinkedIn.

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.210] – Steve [Intro]

Hello, and welcome to the Teacher Edition of Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud. Teaching is a complex and rewarding journey, and I’m always eager to explore the many ways teachers engage students in their learning. This podcast is dedicated to supporting you, the teacher, as you inspire and guide your students. Thanks for joining me. I’m excited you’re here.

[00:00:29.880] – Steve

Classrooms built on dignity, authenticity, and connection. I’m excited to have Angie Freese join our podcast today. Her experiences as a classroom teacher, building and district-level administrator, and as a parent have led to her recent book, “Meant for More.” Angie has worked with countless educators in the areas of assessment, RTI, and inclusive practices. She focuses on empowering educators to gain sustainable growth and performance for all students. Welcome, Angie.

[00:01:11.370] – Angie

Thank you, Steve. Happy to be here today.

[00:01:13.960] – Steve

Angie, as you spent time in building administrative positions and district-level roles, what insights emerged and joined those experiences that you had previously built from your teaching experiences?

[00:01:29.250] – Angie

One of the most important things I’ve learned over the last few years is that there are brilliant people stuck in archaic systems. Within our organizations, we either have the knowledge and skills and mindsets that we need to pursue excellence with each other and our students, or we know where to access learning that will get us there. So the brilliance is in the space already. Oftentimes, however, I’m invited into schools or districts because someone has identified something that is wrong. And despite that awareness, interestingly enough, in the very systems that would benefit most from creativity and innovation, the boundaries of those systems are tighter and more rigid, and that paralysis is real. And so oftentimes people feel stuck or confused or exhausted so we can’t wonder why people are leaving our profession when we’re not intentionally about how we support people to truly feel connected to the mission and give them the tools they need to be successful.

[00:02:38.280] – Steve

I’m almost hearing unlocking potential of teachers that – it’s there. And It’s been stymied, perhaps, and you work to unlock it?

[00:02:50.350] – Angie

I do my best. And one of the things that I offer in these learning spaces is that we are a fierce and bold and brave cohort as educators. We are poised and ready to be of service to the students and families that they serve. And my opportunity and my partnership with folks is truly to be able to facilitate the necessary space to invite in some refreshed thinking, ideas, and perhaps even momentum to help our amazing educator cohort just reclaim the dignity in our profession, to be fair, to mobilize our shared efforts, to actually realize what seems to be this elusive vision of creating access and opportunity and growth for each and every learner.

[00:03:46.140] – Steve

Well, there’s a quote in your book that caught my attention, so I wanted to ask you to expand on it a little bit. You wrote, “Remember, you have permission to be exactly where you are. My ask is that you just not be complacent staying there.”

[00:04:05.280] – Angie

Yeah. Well, my first assumption, always, is that people are doing the best they can with the information and the resources that they have. But if we still aren’t getting the results that we want, we must choose to learn and to move and to support each other in that move forward. So the permission piece comes from, of course, we’re in the space that we’re in because of the learning and the experiences and the opportunities and the conversations that we’ve had. But if we’re still not feeling like we’re getting the results that we desire, we have to choose. And I’m real intentional in that word about choice. We have to choose to rise to this level of conversation and awareness awareness and knowledge access so that we can truly do the things that we were meant to do.

[00:05:07.810] – Steve

In your book, “Meant for More: Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection,” you share six key focus points. I’m wondering if we could take those one at a time and give us a little more detail around each one. The first one you identify is embracing authenticity.

[00:05:31.870] – Angie

Yeah, this idea really goes beyond the concept of, well, just be yourself, as maybe a foundational definition for authenticity, and even goes deeper beyond the performative actions of posting signs that say everyone belongs here, but not really having spaces and systems that honor that. So we want to go deeper than the surface level of what authenticity may or may not mean to people. And in the meant for more classroom, we really define this in a number of ways. Each chapter within the book is structured to invite the reader to first examine their own practices and then prepare their team, perhaps, to get ready, and then the students to get ready and it closes with the infrastructure pieces that might be required to navigate this meant for more element and to pursue one next step forward in this work. And so when it comes to authenticity, the reason that I choose to start with self and the reason that this element was specifically chosen for the first one for my reader to explore is because everything else is fundamental to us being able to own our own identity. When we’re comfortable with ourselves and who we are and what we offer, we are less afraid of who someone else might be and how they choose to show up in a space.

[00:07:09.050] – Angie

And the reason that’s important is because it allows us to then be intentionally inclusive. So once you’ve taken care of you, then you understand that intentional inclusivity is truly an opportunity to model that authenticity, to model that respect, and even to express dignity for other people.

[00:07:31.610] – Steve

Sounding to me like that walks right into the second one. I’m building a plan here. It’s the second one of fostering connections.

[00:07:42.930] – Angie

Yes. So this second second piece of fostering connection really intends to help the reader honor and validate people’s lived experiences, and also validate their responses to their circumstances that they might be in. So again, just like the previous chapter, we’re moving past and we’re moving deeper through the performative actions to know about someone rather than just know of someone. And so when we can, again, start with ourselves and empower ourselves to be in a position where our classrooms and schools and districts are truly fostering connection, there’s three key elements here that we consider. The first is really prioritizing advertising students over the content. And so the COVID-19 pandemic, for example, grossly underestimated the impact of missing connections and relationships for our students and our adults, for that matter. And so we really know now more than ever how we are meant to be in relation with each other. So the performative action might be that we begin the year with great opportunities to build community and connection and foster relationships. But the encouragement in the chapter is to continue to keep nurturing those relationships all year long and to keep monitoring and reflecting on our own practices as adults to make sure that those spaces are clear in the classroom.

[00:09:14.950] – Angie

The second component of this chapter is really for us as educators to create this investment in who our learners are as people, not just as students. And so as an example, even when we give feedback to learners, or when we connect with folks, so often we might give people feedback in an attempt to connect with them that says, “oh, good job” or “nice work.” Actually, this just reminds me of a quick parenting story – but I was playing tennis with my daughter a couple of weeks ago, and she humbled me in the ways that teenagers are often capable of. But we were volleying back and forth, and I was really proud of how she was getting the ball back, and she’s really leveraging some power. Anyway, to make a long story endless here, she was volleying and I kept saying, “Nice. Oh, that’s great. Good work.” And she finally stopped midpoint and said, “Mom, what is nice about what I’m doing?” She knew it was good. So then I had to go in and say, “oh, well, I really like how you are getting set. You’re keeping balance. You’ve got your racket face open. And I can’t always see the volley coming, but I know it’s going to be a good one based on how I hear that sound off the racket.”

[00:10:45.610] – Angie

And so, again, she just provided me with this humbling experience.

[00:10:51.120] – Steve

She gave you some great coaching.

[00:10:53.250] – Angie

And she sure did. But I think about that story in this because I also think that we foster connection by being true with kids. The use of the phrase, “real talk” in the subtitle of my book was quite intentional. We have to be open and honest and direct, and we can be kind and compassionate as we do so. But we also just want to be clear about what are we doing, what are we saying? What are we looking for that really helps to foster this environment where a connection can be made? And then we can continue to go deeper with that feedback that feeds the work forward. Because sometimes kids, just the third piece here that I want to honor in this chapter is really just that kids, we need to hear what students have to share. Sometimes they just need someone to talk at rather than talk to. And so I think it’s just reflective for us to notice which learner do we have a connection with. To which kids are we giving nicknames and joking around with, and for which other kids maybe have we not yet made that connection? What percentage of our time are we spending with which type of learner?

[00:12:08.180] – Angie

And I think those are just really important questions to ask ourselves and to create these nurturing and inclusive environments.

[00:12:14.610] – Steve

Well, take us to the third one, cultivating curiosity.

[00:12:18.170] – Angie

Sure. Absolutely. This opportunity to cultivate curiosity in the classroom comes from being able to honor and dignify student inquiry through that connection and that relevance that we’ve spoken about previously. When we create connection to content and we inspire curiosity, it’s just a natural, but it’s also a respectful and sustainable way to heighten learner engagement as well as promote academic growth and achievement with kids. So when we’re modeling the generation of new ideas, when we’re modeling risk-taking, when we’re asking kids to consider how to solve problems in a more creative way, this is the real opportunity to nurture inquiry and really overcome this antiquated way, and perhaps even unlearn this idea of teaching that school is the place where the teacher tells and the kids listen. And I know that we’ve had some research over the last few decades, and we’ve had great models models in our schools and of maybe pockets of excellence in our schools where certain teachers are pursuing this idea of curiosity, but we also know that when it comes to the skills that kids need in our community and even the global community. There was some research I discovered in my manuscript or in preparing to write the manuscript that the World Economic Forum publishes their list of skills that will best contribute to a global community.

[00:14:03.220] – Angie

And they’ve had to publish it every two years since 2016 because of the nature of how quickly adaptability and flexibility and innovation and creativity are becoming just absolutely essential competencies for our learners. So this idea of curiosity really wants to honor that. And it couples with the meant for more classroom idea because we want to create spaces where kids feel safe to make mistakes, and they don’t fear failure.

[00:14:33.820] – Steve

I’m sensing the teachers’ need to cultivate one’s own curiosity is a critical component.

[00:14:43.140] – Angie

You are absolutely right with that piece. Instead of even, what are our own passions? What are our own interests? As educators, we are relentless in pursuit of student performance and student growth. And sometimes that comes at the cost of nurturing our own curiosities, our own passions, our own hobbies. What do we like to do in our time outside of the classroom? And how do those inquiries and those curiosities create more inclusive, authentic spaces in the classroom?

[00:15:25.190] – Steve

How about the next one, empowering voice?

[00:15:30.160] – Angie

Sure. The empowering voice chapter really is focused on intentionally developing skills in which kids and adults learn to use their voice for both advocacy and to represent meaningful change. So we want kids to be both equally aware of their voice and how to use it, as well as being being given moments in which to do so. So it’s one thing in the classroom to teach here’s how to advocate, here’s how to be a change agent, here’s how to communicate your needs. But we also want to be reflective to consider how often kids actually have an opportunity to do so or when they do, let us know what their needs are or advocate for change. If we stifle their voice because the system isn’t designed to accept it, we get in this space of real dissonance intentions. So by design, the meant for more classroom ensures kids see themselves in the learning environment and the activities we empower voice by partnering with students to construct or co-construct, rather, those learning experiences. And we also create spaces where we can foster trust and normalized risk-taking so that we really, truly can that are ways to notice the power dynamics in our classrooms, create opportunities to invite kids to be partners with us, and even when it comes to decision making, to make sure that kids understand what decision should I make as the teacher?

[00:17:15.630] – Angie

What decision should you make as the student? What decisions perhaps could we make together to create this necessary space where we feel like our voices matter?

[00:17:25.880] – Steve

So that is all going to be supported then by the next chapter, Nurturing Resilience.

[00:17:31.470] – Angie

It’s almost like there was a plan…[laughter]

[00:17:34.270] – Steve

Yeah, really. [laughter]

[00:17:35.160] – Angie

I appreciate your recognition of that.

[00:17:41.520] – Steve

It’s great to hear you as you lay it out. Somehow I didn’t catch that closely enough earlier, but it really does fall together.

[00:17:50.790] – Angie

Well, this next chapter on nurturing resilience, I could spend a podcast or five talking about, and I will keep it to some high-level pieces here. I think that as fierce and bold and brave of a cohort as we are as teachers and educators, we are continuing to experience spaces where we’re asked to do more with less, and we have to really consider how our current feelings and emotions about our work are connected to the infrastructure in which we’re engaging. So there’s really two sides this coin. There’s many sides to the coin, let’s be fair, but two sides to consider today. One side of the coin is this exhaustion and just complete burnout that members of our profession are feeling, and it’s happening so fast that we can’t catch up because you may feel this way, and you may not know why. So my inquiry here to teachers that I work with and principals and leaders alike is, if we’re feeling this way, to what degree do we have competing priorities on our campus? To what degree do we have limited collaboration and professional learning experiences to grow our skill sets and mindsets? To what degree do we have inconsistent or untimely communication about initiatives or practices or decisions that are coming up?

[00:19:22.850] – Angie

And then is there an inequity in the distribution of resources? And is it a combination of those things that are contributing to this exhaustion and this burnout? And then on the other side of the coin, we have teachers who feel fully empowered, and they feel trusted, and they feel like they’re valued members of their school community. And oftentimes, the patterns in the research indicate that’s because, well, there’s dedicated time to develop relationships. There’s a direct and timely and honest communication that also includes feedback and celebration as a regular part of how we’re engaging in our work. And decisions are made that keep kids at the center and truly your focus on the mission. But I think perhaps the most interesting question and perhaps even the most fervent writing moment for me in this chapter was the realization of this, is that we really have to ask ourselves, why should I or my students be asked by the system to work more and to fight harder against said acts when the system unrealistically demand so much of me in the first place? And that is just the real talk that we have to consider as we continue to revitalize and rejuvenate the dignity of our profession.

[00:20:48.550] – Steve

So to close this out then – Giving Grace.

[00:20:52.130] – Angie

Yes. Just as authenticity was the first chapter and had to be the first chapter, Giving Grace had to be the last chapter. After we stirred some things up in Chapter 6 with nurturing resilience and thinking about how to do that for both adults and kids, I wanted to leave the reader with this idea of how we connect the ideas of forgiveness and acceptance with grace. So when we think about this, I mean, I’m a human being, you’re a human being, which means that we will make mistakes. We will we’ll say things we don’t mean, we will forget something important. We’ll hurt someone’s feelings, and we’re just not going to win at all of the things, even most of the time. So how do we reset our minds and recalibrate our experiences to really get into this cadence of speaking to ourselves with kindness, giving ourselves permission to be who we making sure that we give ourselves the same grace that we so freely give to others, and perhaps most importantly, to set time for ourselves on the calendar. I have Post-it notes by my bed to free my mind of things that come up at 3:00 in the morning.

[00:22:18.910] – Angie

I give myself self-care Saturdays when I can. I’m up early to chase a sunrise on a hike or something. But I think the grace part really comes from the idea that there’s only one of me and there’s only one of you. So we have to be kind to that person because we’re truly meant for more.

[00:22:42.480] – Steve

Well, I’m going to go back to the quote I pulled from your book about it’s someplace that I want to be in the future that I’m not now. So if I were a teacher looking through your six items that you just went over with us, and I decided there was an area that I wanted to move ahead with, how would I go about starting?

[00:23:05.380] – Angie

Well, I think the most important part of this work is to start with yourself and start with your strengths. So often we are asked to respond to the things that we’re not doing very well or that we might need to learn more about. But if we haven’t first acknowledged what we’re already good at, where we’re already feeling competent and confident, where we already are demonstrating that resilience, if we don’t first honor those things, then we lose sight of the foundation that we can stand on. So when we do hit a step back, when we inevitably have to take a step backward, we come back to this foundation that we’ve explored ourselves and that we embrace those strengths, we identify those strengths, we nurture those strengths so that then we can take one step forward, whatever that might be. So the suggestion to teachers really is start with yourself and start with your strengths. And then once you notice those things and you normalize speaking to yourself with kindness about what’s good and what you do well, then you can keep nurturing that into existence.

[00:24:24.850] – Steve

Well, thank you so much, Angie. And I’m wondering, what’s the best way that listeners could find out more about your book and the various projects that you’ve got ongoing?

[00:24:38.290] – Angie

Sure. Well, the book is accessible through the SolutionTree website. You can also find it on Barnes & Noble and Amazon. Again, the title of the book is “Meant for More: Real Talk About Classrooms Built on Dignity, Authenticity, and Connection.” You can find me on Instagram @meantformorementum, and also on LinkedIn. It would be a great way to connect with me. Just send me a message. I’d love to connect with you, learn what you’re up to, learn what’s working in your system, why it’s working, and how we can keep going from there.

[00:25:17.610] – Steve

Well, thank you so much. We’ll be sure to put some of those links into the end of the podcast to make it easy for folks to find.

[00:25:25.930] – Angie

Great. Thanks so much, Steve.

[00:25:27.750] – Steve

Have a great day.

[00:25:28.950] – Angie

You, too.

[00:25:32.050] – Steve [Outro]

Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Steve Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

“If a leader wants to be seen as trustworthy, he or she needs to build a connection through rapport”, shares Mike Gilmour, elementary principal, and the author of “The Power of Rapport.” Mike walks through six focus areas for building rapport, all of which can be consciously practices and coached: Body Language, Communication, Authenticity, Consistency, Energy and Enthusiasm, Intentionality.

Connect with Mike Gilmour on LinkedIn or at: https://thepowerofrapport.com/

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.330] – Steve [Intro]

Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you have a challenge to guide continuous teacher growth that promotes student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from our experienced guests and insights that I’ve gathered across many years. I’m thrilled you’re here. Thanks for listening.

[00:00:26.570] – Steve

“The Power of Rapport.” That’s the title of a book written by today’s podcast guest, Mike Gilmour. Mike is an elementary principal at the Dubai American Academy. I had the chance to meet Mike when working on a PD program at his school. I heard about his book, I ordered it, and before I was halfway through, an email went off to Mike trying to schedule him for the podcast. So I’m so pleased that he agreed and is here with us today. Welcome, Mike.

[00:00:55.730] – Mike

Thanks so much, Steve. It’s really great to be with you. I appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate you buying my book as well. That’s always a good thing, but yeah, so glad you found it helpful and looking forward to chatting to you and the listeners about it today.

[00:01:11.350] – Steve

I’m looking forward to sharing it with other people in my work. So thanks again for giving us the time. I know from your book that you have a background that is corporate as well as a background in education. So I wondered if you’d share with us just a little bit of your experiences.

[00:01:31.550] – Mike

Yeah, absolutely, Steve. So obviously, I’m working in education now, and I really feel that I’ve found my calling in education and especially education administration and leadership. I’m so grateful to have the opportunities that I do to lead a wonderful school with outstanding faculty and students. But prior to getting to education, I actually had a sports science background. And then I was involved in corporate nonprofits, essentially nonprofit sports, charities, and heading up a fairly large charity in South Africa and seeing the growth in South Africa of that charity, which had a head office in the US and was funded primarily from the US, but had a wonderful time doing that and really enjoyed that. And then when the financial crunch came in 2008, 2009, unfortunately, that came to a fairly abrupt end. And then I was able to fall back on my education training and transition into education. And then it’s just been a wonderful journey since then, just being able to move overseas, teach both in South Africa but also in Southeast Asia and now in the Middle east. So, so grateful for the opportunities that education has given me.

[00:02:49.030] – Steve

What led to your focus on the topic of rapport?

[00:02:53.270] – Mike

So, as I say in the start of the book, I’ve always been fascinated by the role of relationships and human interactions. And growing up, I would find myself often just analyzing or observing how people would interact and how some people were able to interact and build good connections fairly easily and other people struggled with those interactions. So whether those interactions were with myself, whether it was a teacher or whoever, I really paid attention to that. Now, I thought that was normal for everyone, but I quickly learned that I was a little bit unique, maybe a little bit special, we should say. But, yeah, it’s just sort of a little interest I’ve always had. And I suppose this book really is nothing more than a passion project, if I’m honest. It’s really my thoughts on this topic in a book, and I just felt that I wanted to have the opportunity to write the book. I felt that alone was a wonderful challenge that I could take on, but then to just put out my thoughts and publish them. And it’s been really so encouraging to hear feedback from people who have read the book, who found it beneficial.

[00:04:05.330] – Mike

And it’s definitely something that I can talk for hours on. I’m not claiming to be an expert by any means, but it’s something I’m definitely passionate about.

[00:04:14.610] – Steve

Well, I will share with you what led me to the quick connecting back with you to come on the podcast was that the passion part shines through.

[00:04:23.750] – Mike

Thank you.

[00:04:24.460] – Steve

Yeah, it’s very clear.

[00:04:26.250] – Mike

I appreciate that.

[00:04:27.720] – Steve

There was a quote that I pulled from your book that kind of captured me, and I’d like to read it to you and then just have you respond to it.

[00:04:38.400] – Mike

Yeah.

[00:04:39.180] – Steve

“The leaders who commit to building authentic relationships are, more often than not the leaders who lead successful organizations and are able to inspire change and innovation. If a leader wants to be effective and seen as trustworthy, he or she needs to build a connection through rapport.”

[00:05:02.690] – Mike

Yeah, absolutely. So I think if we have to simplify it, leadership is all about trust. And as a leader, if you want to bring about change or bring about, let’s bring into a school context, school improvement, teacher development, all of those vital aspects of leadership, none of them can be achieved sustainably and over the long term without trust. And how do we build trust? We build trust by having connections with people, by being vulnerable, by supporting people. So I just think that is absolutely fundamental to the role of leadership. I’ve seen – if we think about more of a dictatorial type of leader, a leader who’s just barking the orders down at people, they are highly effective in the short term. They will get a lot achieved in the short term by just micromanaging everything and getting it all done. But over the long term, that will fragment very quickly, and that’s not sustainable. So to have a sustainable long term impact on an organization or on people, we have to develop a connection because that then leads to trust and we can truly bring about change and improvement in our organizations.

[00:06:17.850] – Steve

As I read that, and even more as I listen to you now, it seems to me that I could almost pull the word leader and organization out and put teacher and classroom in. It seems to line up.

[00:06:35.470] – Mike

Yeah, absolutely. Because essentially the teachers are the leaders in the classroom. They are leading those 25 children. They are also the salesperson in the classroom. They are selling a numeracy curriculum or a literacy curriculum to the children. So all of those titles absolutely apply to teachers in the classroom, to principals, assistant principals, you name it. It doesn’t have to only be the head of school, the superintendent. We are all leaders because we have influence and influence over people. And that really is the definition of leadership.

[00:07:12.570] – Steve

And influence without rapport isn’t possible.

[00:07:18.190] – Mike

Yeah.

[00:07:21.230] – Steve

Long term influence.

[00:07:23.300] – Mike

Yeah, you can have influence, but is it sustainable over the long term? And is that influence going to build upon itself and reproduce itself? Is that going to happen? No. So I think that’s the thing when we look at it, and I think for some leaders, that’s a challenge because we want to control the results, we want to control things. But really, that is very short term in its approach. Whereas if we take the time to intentionally build rapport, to build connections, to build trust, we are then able to bring about such a wide range of change and enhancement to people’s lives and to organizations that will be in place long after we leave those organizations. And I think that’s ultimately the goal of any leader.

[00:08:14.430] – Steve

Now I’m hearing the word empowering.

[00:08:16.770] – Mike

Yeah. I mean, leadership is empowerment. That is what we here to do. I know that’s why I’m here, is absolutely to empower our teachers to do what they do every day with the students in the classroom and to set them up for success. I can’t do that without rapport, without every day building that rapport. And we can get into what that looks like on a daily basis. But I think another key word in this is intentionality. And it takes a high level of intentionality to build rapport with people because, like I say in the book, the example, if we take a tennis player, Roger Federer, there’s a nice Swiss connection for you, Steve. So Roger Federer is naturally a way better tennis player than I will ever be. He is gifted with tremendous talent, and that’s wonderful. But both Roger Federer and I need to practice tennis every day if we want to get better. Roger Federer can’t sit back and just not train. He’ll be overtaken. So I liken that to developing rapport with people. Some people naturally have a gift with other people to build relationships easily. For other people, it’s a little bit harder.

[00:09:34.590] – Mike

But both types of people should be intentional to develop the skill of building rapport. I really believe it’s a skill that can be acquired, and so that takes out the excuse that some people have that they might not be a people’s person. Well, in leadership, in life, you have to be a people’s person. That’s definitely my approach.

[00:09:58.420] – Steve

Yeah. A lot of the listeners to this podcast work in coaching, instructional coaching in schools and administrators, coaching teachers. And I’m just more recently starting to work with several schools on leadership coaching. Some that I’m providing myself and some that I’m training them in coaching each other. And that purposeful practice is what really gets gained to be able to seek input from people around me on my rapport building strategies. What do you see that builds rapport, and what do you see that can get in the way of it?

[00:10:40.460] – Mike

Yeah, because every day we’re teaching our children in the classroom to reflect on what they do and then make refinements to what they do so they can continue that learning journey or that learning cycle. But yet sometimes as adults, we forget that the power of reflection and just reflecting on what we do in order to change. I say often in the book, awareness leads to regulation. Once we have awareness, we have an acute awareness of, let’s say, our body language. We can then regulate that to be a strength for us, to use that, the power of our body language to build a connection with someone else. But if I haven’t yet gained awareness of how I might be standing in a conversation or communicating with my verbal communication, how can I then regulate that? And so there’s so much when it comes to being purposeful, but also just having a sense of awareness about these, what can be sometimes quite simple things, but very, very powerful if harnessed.

[00:11:43.900] – Steve

Well, you kind of walked us into the start here. Your book is laid out with a section that looks at six different strategies. And I’m wondering if I gave you the strategy one at a time here and kind of give us a nutshell of the importance of it, and then maybe an example of how somebody uses that strategy. And the first one that you started with was body language.

[00:12:06.640] – Mike

So let’s pick it up. Well, I just think the research shows we communicate a message nonverbally way more than we communicate verbally. And I think when we have that understanding of how our body language, our facial expressions and the messages they communicate to people, both intentionally and unintentionally, we can harness that for good and for our purposes. I think we’ve all been in meetings or we’ve spoken to people and we’ve walked away going, wow, their body language was terrible. They’re clearly not in a good place or something, right? We’ve all had that experience. But what about if we could change that? And if we could use our body language to portray or showcase an openness, a willingness to connect, that’s, I think, so important. I speak in that chapter about something as simple as smiling and what that does when we smile at people, it just opens a doorway for connection. I often find there’s very few times if I smile at someone, they smile back. It’s contagious. But I think having that awareness is so key and so vital. And sometimes we need an honest friend to tell us about our body language.

[00:13:24.910] – Mike

But I speak about a few things in that chapter. I speak about smiling. I speak about even how we stand walking tall, walking with purpose. These things, while we never want to be fake in what we do, we always want to be authentic, actually, I wrote a chapter on that, we can control how our body moves. And when we understand the power of body language and how valuable it is in communicating a message, I think we then begin to take it a bit more seriously and to be, if nothing more, just a bit more mindful about what our face is doing when we’re listening to someone in a conversation. Are we rolling our eyes? Are we looking away?

[00:14:07.700] – Steve

Years ago, I was working with a brand new teacher, and I reached the spot where she had to write “smile” into her lesson plan notes because she was just so focused on how hard she was working, the kids were seeing this tension, and it wasn’t here. It was really just hard work. And she’d looked at that note, then she’d look up and smile across the room. It also changed her then, because when she did that, it changed the way the kids responded to her. So that was really authentic when you say that. The next one?

[00:14:46.830] – Mike

If I can say one more thing, there’s a theory in the book. It’s a little bit disputed. It’s called uncertainty reduction theory, and it speaks about what happens in our brain when we meet someone for the first time and how our brain is working so hard to figure out if this person is someone who we will like, who we’ll connect with or not, that our brain is working so hard to reduce the uncertainty in the person we’re speaking with. If we meet someone for the first time, before we’ve even spoken, we need to know that their brain is sussing us out and is already sending messages as to whether this will be someone I will connect with or not. So if we know that, and that’s universal, I believe, for all human beings, okay, well, when I meet someone for the first time, I’m going to be mindful about how I greet them, how I connect with them, so I can help their brain in reducing any uncertainty they may have in me.

[00:15:44.720] – Steve

Powerful. So the next strategy you look at is communication.

[00:15:50.430] – Mike

Yeah, look, I think we can all agree that communication is probably the most powerful, in terms of building rapport and building connections with people. It’s how we communicate with them. I speak in that chapter a lot about listening and how powerful listening is in the process of communication, because without that, and it happens so often, I’m guilty of it at times. I’m sure we all are, we listen to reply and to respond as opposed to just simply listening and pausing and even allowing a little bit of awkward silence. And we’re so often in the mold of trying to fix the problem, but communication is really just so important. I speak in that chapter a little bit about how we build rapport and what it looks like. And I sometimes use the analogy, companies sometimes think that they’ll put on a big Christmas party and they’ll do absolutely nothing for eleven months, but then once a year they’re going to put on a big Christmas party and there’s the rapport for the year. We’ve done it, we’ve got it all locked in, everyone’s happy. But really, I see rapport being like a sieve, really.

[00:17:08.510] – Mike

We’re pouring sand in every single day and it’s slowly leaking out and our job is to make sure that it remains full and never gets completely empty. Whereas if you just dump a ton of sand in that, it’s going to leak out in a couple of months time. So that’s where communication comes in every day or every couple of days, just checking in with people. “Hey, how are you doing? Good to see you. How can I help you?” Those little checkpoints that are seemingly so insignificant and small are simply just such a powerful check in to building that flywheel of rapport that we have. And when that is just flying with momentum, there’s so much trust. Even if things do go wrong, there’s such a trust base that people have in you. So communication is powerful. Listening is such a key part of that. There’s many other things I speak about, about language and the way we communicate and those things. So I need to clarify that I’m still learning these things as well. I need to state again, I am not the expert.

[00:18:12.990] – Steve

Next chapter that you had was authenticity, which you mentioned a little bit.

[00:18:17.810] – Mike

Yeah. So when you think about these strategies, you can think, well, isn’t this fake? Are we not just manipulating people? And are we manipulating the situation in order to gain something from people or to build artificial trust so that we can achieve something? So authenticity is so, so vital to building rapport. In fact, there’s nothing more repulsive than someone who is inauthentic. I think we can see it right when we meet someone and we just know they’re just trying to get me to do something or achieve something for their purposes, I don’t know about you, but it turns me off right from the start, and I actually want to do the opposite of what they want me to do.

[00:19:00.890] – Steve

I’m in the store looking to buy a washing machine, and the salesperson comes up and compliments me on my tie. I want to turn around and tell him it’s for sale if he’s interested in buying one. [Laughter]

[00:19:12.110] – Mike

[Laughter] Yeah, exactly. It’s so vital. And so while implementing these strategies is authentic, right? It is absolutely authentic. What makes it authentic is when we want the best for the person we’re building the rapport with. So if I’m building rapport with you, Steve, yes, I’m mindful of my body language. I’m mindful of how I communicate. And the whole purpose of why I’m doing that is so I can see you grow, see you succeed, versus getting what I need or what I want to try and achieve. So that’s the differentiator when it comes to authenticity. And, yeah, just, man, just so valuable.

[00:19:56.830] – Steve

I really connect with that because I’ve had times when I’m sharing strategies with teachers, they’ll say it’s manipulative. And my response back to them is, you can’t help but to be manipulative if you go into class and frown if you go into class, stand on your head in the corner, if you don’t show up for class. Whatever you did is having an impact on kids. So now the question is, are you selecting a behavior that you’re implementing because it’s for the best of the student? It’s manipulative when it’s for the best of the teacher, and I think we see that a lot in leadership. It’s when a teacher gets a compliment and then they get a request to do something.

[00:20:43.230] – Mike

Absolutely.

[00:20:44.020] – Steve

They know when you start the next compliment run.

[00:20:47.290] – Mike

Yes, exactly. I know. There’s another job coming.

[00:20:53.970] – Steve

The next one you labeled as consistency.

[00:20:57.410] – Mike

Yes. So kind of closely linked with authenticity. One of the key things we need to do in order to build trust is to be consistent in our mental approach, in our emotional approach, in our social approach with people. Let’s all think for a minute. I’m sure we are aware of some people who, we might have even labeled them a bit of an emotional roller coaster. We never quite know what we’re going to get. One minute they’re up top, next minute they’re down low, and you kind of walk on eggshells around them because you don’t know what mood they’re going to be in. That is exceptionally tiring to be around. And we see that quite a bit. So if you can carry or conduct yourself in a manner that is consistent in terms of your emotional state, in terms of your social connections with people, that it’s so valuable. But it’s also not denying times that things get hard and things are tough, and that’s okay. We don’t have to smooth over those. That ties back to authenticity. If we’re having a bad day, well, hey, that’s okay. We can have a bad day, but does it have to influence the other person’s day?

[00:22:05.910] – Mike

So being consistent in our approach is very valuable because it just helps people build trust in us. So they know regardless of what kind of day I might be having, they can approach me, they can come to me, they can speak to me and the way that I will respond to them or connect with them will be similar every single day.

[00:22:26.290] – Steve

So consistency allows them to be vulnerable.

[00:22:30.750] – Mike

Yeah, it does. And allows yourself to be vulnerable as well. Because you can say, you know what, guys, I’m having a bad day today. This happened, and that’s okay.

[00:22:40.610] – Steve

I’ve worked in places where folks come into the secretary and try and get a read on is today an okay day to go ask him about this, or should I wait till tomorrow?

[00:22:53.760] – Mike

Yeah, exactly right. And it’s just tiring to be around that. And everyone’s walking on eggshells and the energy is just off in the place. And yeah, it’s actually toxic. It never leads to good results.

[00:23:10.430] – Steve

Next chapter was energy and enthusiasm.

[00:23:14.430] – Mike

So this ties in a little bit with body language and how we portray ourselves and carry ourselves. And once again, authenticity in this is very important, right? Because there’s nothing more irritating or annoying as that sort of energizer bunny. We know their life is falling apart, but they paint this picture that everything’s fine and they’re full of energy and enthusiasm. So we don’t want to be authentic with it. But there’s something about people who portray energy and enthusiasm in terms of their daily work. In terms of their daily life. It is attractive to people. I think we’ve all worked with people who suck the life out of people. I refer to them as energy vampires in the book. People who just absolutely are constantly focused on the negative, always complaining and really just changing the energy. They walk into a room and it just feels different after a while. We want to be the people to walk into a room, to change that energy, to be a positive energy so there can be a wave of enthusiasm coming through the room or the building or the person who we speaking to. It goes back to our purpose.

[00:24:22.890] – Mike

If our purpose is to build connections with people, well, how am I carrying myself? Do I want to build a connection with someone who is not really enthusiastic or is lethargic or whatever? Well, probably not. But if there’s someone who is portraying energy, enthusiasm, confidence, then I want to be a part of that and I want to connect with that person. But I can’t stress it enough. It has to be authentic. And it can’t be this false facade that we build, because then that just becomes so repulsive for people. So we need to once again be aware of ourselves, be aware of how we are. What are we portraying to those around us? Are we portraying the image of someone who is energetic, who is enthusiastic, who is positive? Or are we portraying the image through our body language and our actions of the opposite? And once we have that awareness, we can then begin to regulate our actions.

[00:25:20.870] – Steve

As I’m listening to you, I’m hearing the need for the rapport strategies to be connected to the purpose. So if the purpose isn’t for the other people, it’s going to throw off any of these. The words you choose, the body language, it’s all thrown off.

[00:25:45.070] – Mike

It goes back to that salesman story, right? It just goes back to the salesman story. People can pick it up in a heartbeat that you are not authentic and your purposes are selfish and not focused on the other person. And once you do that, it’s pretty hard to recover from that because people will form an opinion of you. But if we can genuinely demonstrate a care for other people that we want to see those around us succeed and thrive and grow. If we can demonstrate that and they truly understand that the sky’s the limit for them and for the connection that we can build for them. But it is all linked to purpose. Absolutely.

[00:26:29.310] – Steve

I think some teachers get in trouble there, not realizing that the kids read it. The kids read that disconnect between words, even just words and body language.

[00:26:44.770] – Mike

Yeah, they do. And look, the kids parents do as you know, think about it. At the start of the year, what do we always tell our teachers and even tell ourselves, build a connection with the parents. Because if we develop that trust bank at the start of the year, when Johnny loses his water bottle or when so and so is in a fight at recess, when all these things happen, because they’re gonna happen, they can make a withdrawal out of the trust bank. And they’re going to trust you as a teacher because you got a connection with them. But when it’s not authentic, the parents can see that as well. And all of a sudden we get a deficit in the trust bank account. And when it comes to that little water bottle incident, which is a small matter, very quickly the superintendent is involved because the parents just simply don’t trust you. You can definitely see when it’s not authentic and it’s just so repulsive. So if you break it all down, it is really just generally having a care for other people and wanting to see them grow and succeed.

[00:27:47.990] – Steve

I believe that repairing that deficit is a whole lot more difficult than building the bank initially. If you build the bank and you get a little bit of a deficit, you got something there. But if you start with that deficit, then no matter how hard you’re working at it, the believability isn’t there and to overcome that gets really tough.

[00:28:10.650] – Mike

Yeah, it is. And you see that. I do see it in some teachers where even a couple of months into the year, they just haven’t invested the time in building those relationships and it’s almost too late a couple of months in to try.

[00:28:26.390] – Steve

And you’re behind the wave.

[00:28:29.020] – Mike

Yeah, exactly right. You got to get ahead of the wave to develop that, and then it can just absolutely multiply. But then when you get behind the wave, you’re never going to catch up with it. So it actually ties in perfectly to the next chapter, which I’m sure you’re going to ask me about.

[00:28:44.950] – Steve

Intentionality, take us right into it.

[00:28:47.340] – Mike

And that, I actually purposely put it at the end of the book because that is the crux of everything. We can have all these wonderful strategies, but if we’re not intentional every day to build rapport, if this is not something on our mind, if we don’t see or understand the value in this, it’ll just become something that we do every now and then, and then it sort of fizzles away. But if we truly understand that our ability to build rapport with people is a key to success in every aspect of life, and I firmly believe that we will be intentional every day to build connections. Now, some of those will be things that come naturally to us, and other things will be things that we’ll maybe make a note of, hey, I want to connect with that person today. When I walk past so and so, I just got a funny vibe. Let me check in, see how things are going. We’re intentional every day. And I just need to stress as well, when we are intentional about building rapport, it’s the small things that matter. It’s not the huge, big thing that takes a huge budget to do those small, little check ins, all of those things.

[00:29:53.330] – Mike

Being mindful of your body language, thinking about how we communicate, how we listen, just demonstrating that energy and enthusiasm, that authenticity and who we are, those things every day will just develop such a groundswell in people’s lives. And then as a leader or as a colleague, as a friend, we have the ability to support them, to develop them, to just help them grow as people and as professionals. So, yeah, it’s so important, but without it, without that intentionality, it’ll just become another thing that we might do for a little bit.

[00:30:32.410] – Steve

I’m almost seeing your six chapters there as a little line on a note card that I put somewhere on my desk. And every now and then, just pick it up and run through the day before I head home today, there’s something on here that I’m not sure of. And so tomorrow, I want to take that consciously.

[00:30:54.450] – Mike

I was doing an interview just after I published the book, and I was speaking to the interview about body language, and so I was talking about it and all of that, and then all of a sudden, she got a little bit awkward because she was like, oh, my goodness – I feel like you’re just sort of, like, criticizing me or critiquing how I’m sitting and all these things. But, of course, that’s never the case, right? But when you’re thinking about things, you kind of always do sort of think about these things, but it’s never in a judgmental way. It’s actually focused on yourself and how you can change what you do rather than other people.

[00:31:32.270] – Steve

And the power of school leaders, being able to have several people on staff that can be your coach, that you can say, kind of look at this list, knowing that this is important to me. When you see a behavior on my part that doesn’t click in with this, wave the flag, because that’s not my intention. My reality is this, and if that’s not what’s getting communicated, that’s what I like to work on.

[00:32:03.080] – Mike

Yeah, absolutely. And having that coachable spirit and attitude is so important. I just think the power of coaching in any context, but in particular, school is just so powerful and we seeing that, obviously thanks to our work with you, Steve. But having that ability to be coached, regardless of what level you’re at, to always be able to have that critical friend, to be able to say those things to you and coach you through a process, just having that extra set of eyes is so valuable and I’ve benefited from it absolutely.

[00:32:40.130] – Steve

Any closing thoughts or comments you want to share with us before we wrap up?

[00:32:45.090] – Mike

I think we’ve done a good job chatting through everything. Like I said at the start, my whole purpose of writing this book is really a passion project. And if I can help encourage a few people, then I’m even more happy. It is something that I truly believe is the key to success in life. And I’m not talking about financial success. I’m talking about success in life in every aspect. If we have the ability and have mastered the ability to build connections with people, I’ll stress it one more time. It is a skill that can be developed in every human being. It’s not a mystical talent that is given to a few and not to others. We can all develop it. And if we have an intentionality to do that, then we can. And yeah, if anyone’s out there has any questions or would like to continue the conversation further, I’d love to.

[00:33:38.790] – Steve

What’s the easiest way for listeners to connect with you?

[00:33:41.880] – Mike

So I’ve got a website as well, thepowerofrapport.com. You can also connect in on LinkedIn. I’m quite active on LinkedIn, so if you drop me a message on LinkedIn, we can always chat. And yeah, I enjoy that. I actually gain energy from talking to people and especially on this topic. I love it. So happy to hear people’s perspectives.

[00:34:02.740] – Steve

We’ll put both of those into the lead-in to this podcast.

[00:34:05.730] – Mike

Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:34:10.210] – Steve [Outro]

Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn @stevebarkley or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com