Tag: AI learning - Steve Barkley

Josh Ecker and Erin Cummings, from the Ed Tech and Learning Design Team at Chester County Intermediate Unit in Pennsylvania, explore AI’s current and future potential for the personalization of students pathways to success. They explore ways that school leaders and instructional coaches support teachers’ AI learning through PD, modeling, and policy. Student AI Literacy is all discussed.

Visit Chester County’s AI Support site here.

Email Josh Ecker: joshe@cciu.org

Email Erin Cummings: erinc@cciu.org

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.300] – Steve [Intro]

Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.

[00:00:29.890] – Steve

AI for Student-centered Learning: Customizing Learning Pathways for Every Student. To gain some more insights into the ways that AI can help teachers and students, I asked members of the Ed Tech and Learning Design Team at Chester County Intermediate Unit in Pennsylvania to return to our podcast. Joining us today are Dr. Josh Ecker, Learning Design Coordinator, and Erin Cummings, Learning Innovation Specialist and gifted liaison. Welcome, Erin and Josh.

[00:01:05.420] – Erin

Thank you for having us.

[00:01:06.990] – Josh

Yeah.

[00:01:07.820] – Steve

Yeah, great. I knew when we were together last time, we’d return, and I’m excited about it. Josh, I looked back – it was almost a year ago that you were on that podcast with me. I’m wondering if you might share some of the changes that you see occurring with school’s use of AI over that time.

[00:01:32.180] – Josh

Yeah. So a year in AI is an eon in most other fields or topics. So a lot can happen in a year, but there’s two levels to it. There’s the one level of the technological advancements and new tools coming out, which is moving at such a fast pace. Implementation in schools is more steady, which is probably a good thing. But we’re definitely seeing progress and some changes there. There are, I would say, two recent focus areas or developments that we’ve been seeing. One is the drafting and sometimes the implementation of policy around AI sometimes built into a school or district’s acceptable use policy, sometimes as a standalone policy, and then connecting that with guidelines for student use, because often policy will be really top level, and then there needs to be additional guidelines. So teachers and students understand what appropriate and effective use looks like in classrooms. So that’s one thing we’ve been seeing. Another is that many districts are starting to review and even pilot some AI tools for teachers, so different tools they can use for planning. And then some also not as common, but some also on the instructional side of things.

[00:02:55.420] – Josh

So putting AI tools directly in the hands of students and giving them access to test it out and experiment and see how they can use AI to improve their learning.

[00:03:05.970] – Steve

So you hit on a question that I was pondering because I know when we spoke last time, we talked quite a bit about the importance of policy. And I was wondering with the presence of AI everywhere, if that policy issue changes from where it was a year ago? I’m almost seeing now that it can’t be avoided.

[00:03:35.270] – Josh

Yeah. I mean, I don’t think it’s realistic to have a policy that says we’re not using AI. It’s more about how to use it effectively and appropriately. And that might be different depending on the context or the specific task that a student or teacher or really anyone is working on. I think what’s another aspect of what’s changed in the past year with policy, specifically, is that we’re seeing more and more guidance on the state level, depending on the state. We’re seeing more guidance there. We’ve gotten recently in Pennsylvania policy guidance from the Pennsylvania State Bar Association. So we have some templated policies that districts can then apply in their own settings. So there’s been progress there. But really, every policy has to have a variety of considerations in terms of use cases, not just we don’t use it, because like you said, it’s everywhere, and there’s really no avoiding it.

[00:04:38.970] – Steve

Erin, I wondered if you’d start us with a look at how AI can the increasing differentiation that the teachers are working with?

[00:04:51.940] – Erin

Yeah, absolutely. I find that depending upon the tool, AI has been able to help our teachers provide those more concrete create ways to differentiate. Previously, I was a teacher for many years, and when we were talking about differentiation, it was usually just, here’s my regular level, and I go one level down. AI has expanded our teachers’ understanding of differentiation and allowing them to realize it’s not just one level down. It could be two. It could be two levels up. It could be changing the way that we are presenting material or having the students show what they are learning, which really aligns with student-centered learning as well. But the AI tools are providing those teachers with the opportunities. It’s increasing their knowledge of differentiation, I feel, especially over the past year that I’ve really been digging into everything with differentiation. Our population is much more diverse. Our students, the way that they learn is much more diverse. The teachers are changing changing the way that they are teaching. They’re changing the way that they are differentiating, specifically using these amazing AI tools that they have available to them.

[00:06:11.270] – Steve

It’s interesting. I was just working with the school this week where they’re still struggling with teachers seeing differentiation as outside of tier one instruction. And instead, it’s more and more differentiation is in effect being thought of as tier one instruction with students working with on-level material, but all the differentiation to support them. So I think that’s a critical piece of training for teachers to have as to how AI can help them address that.

[00:06:51.300] – Erin

Yes, absolutely. In one of my other roles, I’m also the gifted liaison. So I work with a lot of our teachers of gifted students. When I start bringing up this term of differentiation to our gifted teachers, they’re like, wait, what do you mean? How is that differentiation? Because I thought differentiation was for our special education students or students who needed some more help because they were challenged too much. It’s like, no, we can use this and we can use AI to help us because it can be overwhelming for our teachers when they are thinking about all the ways they need to differentiate for the students. I’m finding that AI is just a way for the teachers to hone in on what they want to do and spend less time doing the menial tasks that they have to do in order to meet the needs of all their students.

[00:07:45.400] – Steve

So increasingly, schools are describing a goal of customizing pathways for students. How do you see AI moving that goal further along, hopefully faster?

[00:08:03.510] – Josh

Yeah. I mean, AI is, as to what Erin said, it is allowing really, teachers, everyone in schools to delegate some of the menial or repetitive routine tasks to AI tools to focus more time really engaged in meaningful work, which usually is interaction with each other, which is interesting when we think about AI and technology in general, sometimes dehumanizing education. I would argue that if we use AI appropriately, it gives us more time in collaboration and communication with each other. So that’s more general. But then things specifically about customizing pathways. Again, think about differentiation. It’s not just saying, let’s go on level down, let’s go on level up. It really is accounting for all the varied ways that students think and learn and engage with whatever the content of that course is and whatever the skillset they’re developing is. So AI really supports even maybe a step beyond differentiation, personalization of student learning experiences. So on the teacher-facing side, as we discussed, it really lets teachers differentiate to really as many pathways as they can think of. And then on the student-facing side, to an even greater extent, using, for example, personalized AI tutors, students can engage with those tools schools and learn in a way that makes sense to them and ask individual follow-up questions that in lieu of having 25 teachers in the classroom, it’s really a good way for students to get some of that personalized instruction and then still have the teacher there to support and guide and really ensure that students are getting what they need in a way that is most effective.

[00:09:55.530] – Steve

I want to play with that word pathways for a moment to check my thinking against yours, or not against, alongside. I think to me, when we talk differentiation to people, they’re looking at reaching the same goal differently And for me, pathways, I’m recognizing standards need to be met, so that’s part of it. But the pathways also talks about the opportunity to go to different places with part of the learning? Does that align for either of you and your thoughts about pathways?

[00:10:38.990] – Erin

I think it does. I see where you’re saying that we have these standards that we have to meet. Our students have to show that they know the standards, but they can go above and beyond that. Like I said, as part of my role with gifted liaison and working with those teachers of gifted students, we’re able to see where we have a student who is so into a specific topic, and the teacher may not be well-versed in this particular topic. Perhaps we’re talking about trains. This student is really into trains. We can use AI and various tools in AI to help increase that pathway, and maybe we’re expanding upon the standards, the traditional standards that we have for that particular student. I think it’s also a way of customizing the pathway for that student who is struggling and allowing them them to meet the standards at their own pace, still following along with what is required by the Department of Education or the state or whoever is requiring the standards, but allowing them to meet the standards in a different way and therefore customizing their pathway to success.

[00:11:51.360] – Steve

I’m wondering if you’ve got an example or two that you might share of maybe a school that you’re working with or a teacher that you’re working with where that increased pathways was able to occur through their use of AI?

[00:12:07.720] – Erin

Honestly, that train example is one that is a real example with working with one of my teachers allowing that student to hit various ELA standards and various social studies standards, but with the topic of trains. It was just a high level of interest for this particular student. My particular teacher was able to take an assignment that she was doing with the other students, still hitting the standards, using AI, I believe she actually used ChatGPT, put that information in and asked ChatGPT to help her create a lesson still hitting these exact standards, but that aligned along with the student’s interest of trains. It seems silly at times, but at the same time, this is not a topic that she was well-versed in. She didn’t know to differentiate the assignment to meet the needs of the student and allow the student to flourish in what they were interested in. It brought back – she was able to get a really great assignment. It met the standards. It addressed the student’s interest. It allowed them to customize how they were going to meet the standards. I think she could have potentially done this without AI, but it would have taken a lot longer.

[00:13:24.860] – Erin

It would have taken a lot more research on her part. Instead, she was able to get it the information back to her using AI in a shorter amount of time, allowing her to be able to use that time to work on other things with students or use that time for other tasks that needed to be done.

[00:13:42.220] – Steve

It’s interesting because a quick return that I find when I’m doing design work for training sessions or facilitation is AI’s ability to give me a page of questions that I can go down and pick the three that I’m going to build my session around. Compared to the amount of time it would have taken me to sit there and come up with those three or four questions. For a teacher who’s looking to span that out into different pathways with 20 kids in a class, simply being able to find the task or the questions is a big step.

[00:14:20.590] – Erin

Oh, absolutely. I find for myself, I have a very hard time working with a blank slate. If you’re asking me to do something and know I can do it, but if I have a blank sheet of paper, I don’t know how to start, and I stumble in the beginning. But if I can ask ChatGPT or one of our other tools, Magic School, for example, to help me get started, then I’m able to complete the task. And it takes me a lot less time instead of spending two days staring at a blank page, not sure what I’m supposed to start.

[00:14:55.700] – Steve

So what do we have to be providing for students students as far as AI literacy for students to be empowered with the possibilities?

[00:15:10.230] – Josh

Yes. So there are four big bucket areas that I’ll talk about in a second. But just to rewind, because I think answering this question really depends on how schools are planning to implement AI, which goes back to the conversation we’re having around learning pathways and differentiation, which is really all about the learning model. And I think what is so exciting to some and scary to others is that AI will really force us to rethink our learning models and how they can – it’s not just necessarily implementing AI into our existing structures. It’s what new structures do we have in place to meet the needs of students going out into this world that we live in, in the world that will exist when they’re graduating. So that’s the big picture. But going back into…

[00:16:05.120] – Steve

Josh, I got to stop just a second before you go. I got to tell you how much I’m hoping you’re right. [laughter]

[00:16:10.090] – Josh

I’ve got 50 years in, and I don’t want to tell you how many times we looked at something and I thought, this is going to change the system.

[00:16:25.170] – Steve

I’m agreeing with you. I’m right there. But I know I know that’s not easy.

[00:16:31.650] – Josh

Yeah. I know last time on last episode we did together, I talked about how AI and its expansion and the explosion of large language models is in some ways disruptive in the same way COVID was. Similar to COVID, where I was very optimistic that it would lead to really major changes in our education systems. We’ve click back into gear for better or worse as we were before. So I could certainly see a world where maybe it doesn’t have the impact that we want it to. But I do also think that because it is so ubiquitous, it’s on student phones, it’s everywhere. I think it will force change in a way. I don’t know. I mean, we’ll see. But I’m optimistic it will force change in doing so. It’ll break some things that exist, but allow for some space for new things. So we’ll see. But going back to what students really need to be literate and use AI effectively and to empower them, the four pocket areas that we think of are first the technical skills. So what just technical knowledge do they need? So prompt engineering, even just using the interfaces that exist out there.

[00:17:53.260] – Josh

A lot of the large language models use very similar interfaces with your chat history on one side, the context window in the middle, and then you type in at the bottom. So just basic but important technical skills like that. And then also effective applications. So not just how to use it, but really how to use it well and how to use it in a way that will augment their learning and not just replace their learning. And that goes into the third area, which is ethical use. So what does it mean to use it ethically in school, at home? What sharing do you have to around how you’re using it and all of that. So one thing we’re encouraging teachers to use and schools to use is some AI use scale. So that way it can easily be pointed to, here’s how in this specific instance, we believe it’s acceptable to use AI, just to give students and even teachers some clarity there. And then the final pocket area is critical evaluation skills, because so much of this goes back to information literacy and understanding why AI can sometimes produce inaccurate results and how to critically evaluate the information you’re getting.

[00:19:08.780] – Josh

So you’re not just taking it at face value, but really considering it and making it your own before putting it out into the world.

[00:19:17.750] – Steve

Thanks. So before we wrap up, most of the listeners on this podcast are school leaders and instructional coaches. And I’m wondering what thoughts you would share with them as to ways that they can best support teachers to continually be increasing their understanding of the possibilities for using AI to empower learning.

[00:19:46.120] – Erin

I think one of the most common phrases that I tend to give in professional developments I do on AI or people that I talk to about it is, don’t be afraid of AI, but be cautious. We want to make make sure that we are following through all those steps of AI literacy that Josh was talking about, but it is not going away. It’s been around for longer than we probably realize. I feel that it’s imperative that we work towards educating everyone on how to use AI, what some best practices might be. When I say everyone, I mean the administrators, the teachers, as well as the students, and maybe even the parents, including various forms professional development, showing teachers and students how to use it, how not to use it, when it is appropriate to use it, or when it’s not. But ultimately, it is here. It’s going to continue to stay. It’s going to continue to enhance learning. And how can we use it in a way that works for us without taking away from our students’ experience of learning?

[00:20:59.200] – Steve

Josh, anything to add?

[00:21:01.000] – Josh

Yeah, I would add two parting messages for administrators. One is, regardless of where any individual administrator might stand now with their understanding of or use of AI, I would start with making a personal habit out of using it, not even necessarily in a professional setting, although you could start there, but really just building some familiarity with it, some comfort with it, and being transparent with your teachers about how you’re using it, what’s what’s going well, what’s not going well, because there’s always, for all the amazing things AI can do, there are still those situations where you get incredibly frustrated, and that’s just a natural part of it. And to be transparent about that and honest with your teachers goes a long way in showing them that you don’t have all the answers. And AI is not a perfect tool or the solution to everything, but it is a powerful tool that can be useful. And my other takeaway is that going back to where we started talking about policy is that is a process that requires a lot of consensus from different stakeholders, often board members. I would not wait for policy to start putting out guidelines for teachers.

[00:22:14.200] – Josh

That will likely be a cyclical process of developing guidelines, developing policy, having the policy inform updated guidelines, and so on and so on. So I would say, in order to really set teachers up for success, start to think and share guidelines, even if policy is in the process of being developed.

[00:22:34.980] – Steve

Yeah, it’s a powerful thought. I can see even as a minimal, having the teachers work with the principal to put together what are the guidelines we’re going to use in this building for our next step if we have to wait for the system to move ahead.

[00:22:51.800] – Josh

Yeah, there’s no reason it can’t be a collaborative process.

[00:22:54.200] – Steve

I really appreciate your input. I’m wondering, as we to wrap up, what’s the best way for any listeners to be able to follow up with you if they have questions or they can see some of the work and the PD that you guys are providing?

[00:23:12.920] – Erin

Best way to reach me actually would probably be email. It is erinc@cciu.org.

[00:23:24.760] – Steve

Thanks.

[00:23:25.830] – Josh

And I will add, just to get a general sense of the work we do at Chester County Intermediate Unit, you can go to cciu.org. and to get in touch with me specifically, I’m also reachable by email. That’s usually the first thing I’ll see. So that is joshe@cciu.org. And then I’m also on LinkedIn. If you just Google my name and LinkedIn, it’ll pop up there. And that’s really my primary social media at this point. As everything else is in flux, LinkedIn has been a rock.

[00:24:00.040] – Steve

I’m with you on that one. We’ll be here to put those connections in the lead into the podcast so folks can jump back and find it. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

[00:24:10.850] – Erin

Thank you.

[00:24:11.720] – Josh