Podcast: Supporting Teachers’ Exploration of AI for Teaching and Learning - Steve Barkley

Podcast: Supporting Teachers’ Exploration of AI for Teaching and Learning

Supporting Teachers’ Exploration of AI for Teaching and Learning

School leaders’ own engagement and modeling of AI is important to support teachers in successfully initiating AI opportunities for teaching and learning. How can instructional coaches introduce and model AI use in their coaching activities with teachers? What might a school or district position statement on AI contain? Technology and design leaders from the Chester County Intermediate Unit in Pennsylvania, Josh Ecker and Kylie Hand, share the ways they support school leaders at various stages of AI implementation in their schools.


AI in Education News & Guidance

AI Curriculum Resources


Our Contact Info:

Kylie Hand, Director of Learning Design & EdTech, Chester County Intermediate Unit: KylieH@cciu.org

Personal Social Media:

Josh Ecker, Learning Design Coordinator, JoshE@cciu.org

Personal Social Media:

  • X: @JoshEcker
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-ecker

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00.250] – Steve [Intro]

Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you have a challenge to guide continuous teacher growth that promotes student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from our experienced guests and insights that I’ve gathered across many years. I’m thrilled you’re here. Thanks for listening.

[00:00:30.450] – Steve

Supporting teachers’ exploration of AI for teaching and learning. I’m joined on this podcast with education technology leaders from the Chester County Intermediate Unit in Pennsylvania, which serves as a education service agency. Josh Ecker, who is the learning design coordinator and Kylie Hand, who is the director of learning design and educational technology. Welcome, Kylie and Josh.

[00:01:02.110] – Josh

Thanks, Steve.

[00:01:03.200] – Kylie

Thank you, Steve. Glad to be back.

[00:01:05.690] – Steve

Glad to have you here. I’m wondering for starters, if you might each take a little bit of time to describe your role at the IU and the services that you provide out to your schools.

[00:01:20.590] – Josh

Sure. So I will go first because I am, relative to Kylie, a newbie to the IU, so I’m sure she’ll be able to elaborate a little. At the IU, as the learning design coordinator, I work with a team of consultants around any projects schools are doing with learning design in general, especially ed-tech infused learning design. So a lot of work with AI, student centered learning, and any other projects and innovative work districts want to bring to their district.

[00:01:52.330] – Steve

Thanks. Kylie?

[00:01:54.240] – Kylie

To add to that, I get the real pleasure of getting to work with Josh and others, jennifer Barron, who we met in an earlier episode here to help support the integration of instructional technology across school settings. I also get to help oversee some of our certification endorsement programs and really help others to understand how learning can look through different modalities. I also get the pleasure of getting to partner and collaborate with others beyond the intermediate unit. And so Josh and I and others get to work with counterparts across our state and then really, as we develop professionally as lead learners, collaborate with others across the nation to try to stay abreast of the research, the evidence, and the growing trends within school systems, educational technology, learning design, competency based learning, and so forth.

[00:02:43.870] – Steve

Thanks and excited that you agreed to join us here with a focus on AI. So I know the initial response to the appearance of AI was in some ways a sense of fear that ranged from security concerns to students cheating. Realizing that there’s a lot to addressing those issues, I’m wondering if you can provide some elements that school leaders who are the group that tunes into this podcast, but mostly building level leaders and instructional coach leaders, some of the elements that leaders should be aware of with the entry of AI.

[00:03:29.770] – Kylie

I think we oftentimes hear of that, when I interpreted your question initially, I’m thinking of concerns, kind of liabilities, things that we should look out for the big bad wolf in this situation. But I’m thinking to maybe start with, spinning it from a more positive angle. So some of the things that school leaders should be aware of is that AI is here and that we are going to need to teach our students how to leverage it appropriately. And one of the best ways that they can do that from a proactive and positive approach, rather than that big bad wolf approach, is modeling it with their faculty. So if I’m an instructional coach, if I’m a principal, assistant principal or central office leader, I should be using AI. I should be the lead learner using AI, and then I should be modeling it with my teachers. When I’m doing something that I could very easily use AI for, I should do that and then I should almost do like the think aloud, just like we do with our students. As to here’s what I did with AI, here’s some of the pitfalls, here’s some of the limitations, here’s what prompting I used.

[00:04:31.860] – Kylie

Here’s what I found worked and didn’t work just to help onboard them a little bit. So I would say maybe start with, think about starting with modeling.

[00:04:40.530] – Steve

So just to check on that, I’m almost envisioning that an instructional coach sitting next to a teacher in a conference, whether it’s a planning conference or generating ideas to tackle an issue the teachers raised, the coach could almost turn to an AI tool there in the conference and model that interaction with AI directly for the teacher.

[00:05:06.790] – Kylie

Oh, absolutely. Pre and post conference. It doesn’t have to just be synchronous. It could be, I’m going to follow up and send you some ideas. And then when the ideas are sent, giving a nod and some credit, I got these ideas from Bard, which is Google’s AI tool, or I got these ideas from Chat GPT.

[00:05:25.710] – Steve

Yeah, I appreciate the reinforcement because I’ve been doing it virtually. I finished the conversation with the teacher and as Zoom went off, I thought, oh man, I should have looked at this. So I jumped in, pulled it up, and then sent the teacher the link for it. Josh, you want to add to that?

[00:05:43.430] – Josh

Yeah, I think on more the reactive or concerned side of the ledger that Kylie was talking about, I think about the data privacy piece, school policies, and I think as coaches, they can support teachers with keeping those considerations in mind during planning and implementation. And then on more the proactive, exciting side of AI and what it can do for our schools is really looking at how we’re future proofing our teaching and learning. And what that means is how are we preparing students for the world that they exist in now, but that they’re also going to be going into, especially after they graduate high school, whether they’re entering the workforce or going to a university somewhere. And it really is the question if AI is going to become as ubiquitous as we all see it becoming, isn’t it a disservice to our students to not build it into their school experience? So that’s kind of the general thought that I keep in mind, because if we’re not being proactive, it’s going to become a problem, whereas it can really be a solution to a lot of current problems.

[00:06:56.010] – Kylie

And to add to that, when we are future proofing our teaching and learning, that is going to look like we may need to outline our assignments by which level of AI use is acceptable in the assignment. We need to also, as teachers, as educators, realize that AI detection may not be possible. It likely is not possible, will not be possible. There’s been a lot of discussion in the higher Ed realm and in the K-12 realm around AI detectors. And really that is not something that we encourage based on the evidence and some of the biases that are actually built within those detectors. So I think a proactive approach would be to talk with your teachers if you suspect that AI use is happening on an assignment in which you clearly said, I really want you to give me your own thinking on this, because it would remove the cognitive lift of the learning process from the learner, then I think we need to have a process in place. So it shouldn’t just be, “I looked at your assignment and it looks too good. You can possibly have written this, right?” Because that is something that conveys another bias to a student from the teacher aspect, which could be really damaging to that student.

[00:08:10.420] – Kylie

So what is an honoring approach to suspected use? Is it, let’s have conversations around your product or your process, and how did you get here? And I really wanted you to learn this particular skill, and it seems like you used AI to really substitute the learning process here. So what does that actual conversation look like? I think it’s incumbent upon our coaches and our school leaders to help our teachers think through that so that they don’t have to react to it, and it’s consistent across classes and teachers.

[00:08:46.270] – Steve

So for the schools that are at the beginning stage of tapping into the benefits, what are some of the starting points that instructional coaches and administrators could be supporting in those initial steps?

[00:09:02.050] – Josh

This is a question that we’ve really – it’s been a huge focus for us both internally in our team and also in our conversations with districts and their admin teams. And we’ve been working on developing some different entry points that districts can take. We have, I want to say, around ten or so in total different entry points, and I won’t go through all of those unless you want this to be a three hour podcast, but I would say the three that if I were a building administrator or an instructional coach on a team getting this work started, the three starting points that I would really consider are modeling and sharing AI with teachers, so exposing them to the benefits and some of the potential downsides of it, discussing the impact of AI with teachers, with the school board, with the community, really, with any stakeholders who are involved in the school environment at all, and then developing an AI position statement and that can really guide the more nitty gritty work that follow.

[00:10:09.930] – Steve

Can you talk a little bit about the kinds of things that might be in a position statement?

[00:10:15.210] – Josh

Yeah. So, Kylie, I think this is something that you can really speak.

[00:10:21.530] – Kylie

Sure, so a couple of examples that come to mind would be Radner Township School District, which is a little bit outside of our county, but within our region. They put together a position, it’s like a one pager. And then the Russell group was really early on, I think as a front runner, it’s a group of universities in the UK that put together something, and it is for higher ed, but I think it could still be applicable for K-12 and it’s a little longer than one page. But really the beliefs that an organization, a school district hold about the usage of AI, I don’t want to put the words in a position statement for a district, but what is in some of these position statements is what we believe about AI usage in education. So we believe that things such as we believe AI is here to stay, we want to embrace it. That means that we’re going to have to rethink some of the assessment strategies, some of the instructional strategies, so that we can make our learning meaningful and relevant, that we’re committed to that, and that we’re going to do that through professional learning, things like that.

[00:11:30.360] – Kylie

So those are just some of the pieces for it. But I would encourage when putting together some position statements, to consider research on best practices for instruction generally that have nothing to do with AI, but also just kind of what do we want our students to be as future ready learners. So I would look at some of the research about what’s coming out from reports like LinkedIn about the future of work, so that if we are expecting to get our students career and college ready or future ready, that we are embedding that into our curriculum and instructional practices.

[00:12:08.670] – Steve

There’s an idea floating around in my head, so I want to run it by you. And I may be totally off, in which case it’s okay to tell me that, but it’s one of the reasons I like doing the podcast informally. As I was listening to you describe several pieces here in the beginning stages, I’m getting a sense that leaders dealing with AI have to take a more active engagement in the process than perhaps they have done with other technology. I’m kind of getting a read –  there was a time the principal could bring the technology coach into the school, create a technology coach position, and kind of hand that thing off to that person. But in listening to you, I’m pondering that leaders with this may need to take a more engaged front end piece.

[00:13:15.110] – Kylie

I would echo that. I think that’s absolutely true. AI is something that really affects all of us, and I think it brings to light because it’s not that AI in general is a new technology, but the access to it, for a lay consumer like myself to be able to access it so widely, has really changed. And it brings to light a lot of new questions and kind of quandaries around ethics and integrity and it brings to light some questions as to what we’re teaching our students. Do we need to teach them in the same way? And if not, then how are we teaching them and what now new things do we need to teach them? So it begs a lot of new questions that we may not have had to grapple with when another new technology came out. One common, similar thread, I might say, would maybe be social media. When social media came out, that was something that was pretty widespread and at the time, sometimes schools would say, oh, well, that’s something that happens outside of the school walls. But then, as we see now in present day, it really bleeds into the school day and is something that we sometimes and oftentimes will encourage students to use, but use in a way that’s judicious and careful and responsible.

[00:14:40.270] – Josh

Yeah, I think that connection to social media is really good. And I would say in general, schools and districts aren’t always the most nimble organizations. They’re not always used to reacting something very quickly and being proactive because there are so many stakeholders, and it’s really important to get that buy in with big decisions. But I think with how quickly generative AI has become a major factor in all of our lives and in the school setting, administrators have to be involved because it takes everyone staying involved and committed to make these decisions more quickly than you might have to make them with other technology or other issues or new things that might arise.

[00:15:24.190] – Steve

So I had asked you about the schools that were at the beginning, implementation piece here or exploration piece and I’m wondering if you’d spend a little time taking us to the other end of that continuum. Are you working with some schools, some educators who kind of jumped in with both feet early on? I’d love to hear what some of those places are making happening for students. And you got thoughts of what’s going to come after that possibility thinking for us.

[00:16:00.490] – Kylie

Yeah, so the school districts that we have seen related to your previous question, the ones that are the front runners are the ones where the leaders took the bull by the horns and just wanted to move forward with this kind of seeing what Josh shared, things are changing so rapidly. It is so hard in a school setting because there are so many competing initiatives, mandates, needs, day to day operations, serving the community, and we understand time is a factor. So one of the things, though, that we’ve seen that’s been helpful is not that the leader themselves is doing all the work, but that they have created these stakeholder groups. And I think once they create these stakeholder groups, identify some of the problems, the issues, the opportunities, then what we’ve seen, it’s almost like a very quick domino effect. Well, if we want to use it, well, what tools do we use? Well, how do we vet those tools? What are the possibilities with AI? Okay, now that I’ve gotten this in the teacher’s hands, what do we want students to use? Well, if we want them to use it, we have to vet the tool.

[00:17:02.880] – Kylie

We have to look at the privacy concerns. We have to consider if the privacy says that it’s for students 18 and under but with parent consent, well, now we have to put in some kind of process. Maybe it’s a permission slip process, which we’ve seen some of our school districts use to use a particular AI tool. And now if I’m using AI tools, I need to teach the safe and responsible use to my students. And then if I’m going to do that, then I have to articulate the guidelines for a particular assignment. When should and shouldn’t they use it? How should they cite it? So once you start going, it then seems to progress quite naturally, and we’ve seen this happen in a few different school districts. I think some districts are just a little resistant because they know once they pull off the band aid, that it’s just going to continue these additional conversations. But we hope that they’re productive conversations. It’s just that sometimes the unknown can be a bit scary and daunting and overwhelming. And that’s why folks like Josh and I exist, so that if you are concerned about how to go down the path, or you want some thought partners or guidance, we can share some of that with school districts as partners.

[00:18:15.830] – Josh

And building off of what Kylie said, there are a couple things in particular we’ve done with some of those earlier adopters. One is there’s a framework called the value add of technology on teaching, which is essentially an evaluation tool for new technologies a school might want to bring in, or it could even be used by individual teachers. And we really like this tool because it is a little more concrete, I would say, than some of the other evaluative tools out there. It really allows teachers or coaches or administrators to think about the impact of the tool in the classroom or the impact on learning. So that framework has been helpful so far for the districts we’ve introduced it to. And then a project I’m thinking of in particular that we worked with the district on is developing a course for students to understand generative AI, its history, and also what appropriate use looks like. So that’s really building their capacity to use it appropriately and effectively as that district starts to bring it more into their day to day instruction.

[00:19:29.800] – Steve

That’s very cool. Is that secondary level? Is that part of a course or is it a course stands on its own?

[00:19:40.610] – Josh

It’s a micro course. So it’s like a 1 hour course broken up into 3, 20 minutes segments for grades nine through twelve. And I believe they gave the students a time frame to complete it. So I think it’s being completed during study hall or some kind of other time during the school day, but I don’t think it’s part of their core contact classes.

[00:20:05.680] – Steve

Got you. So can you think of one of the places that you’ve worked with where you can kind of point us and say, here’s a pretty neat picture of students getting engaged in the learning process in a way that wasn’t happening, at least not at the depth or the level that AI has made the opportunity for it to happen at? Something come to mind with that?

[00:20:36.470] – Kylie

I would say that just speaking to the example Josh gave, we had a lot of feedback from students about the course as part of the assessment in the course where they said, I thought I knew a lot about AI, or I thought I knew what AI was, how it worked, but I realized I really didn’t. And so I think that one of the things that we get to do when we talk about AI with students is help them to understand some of the concepts of computational thinking and algorithmic literature, understanding that there are these certain patterns to AI that we can decompose our assignments into specific prompts to get us to a specific outcome that we might be looking for. So I think a lot of our schools that we’re working with are front running, are just starting the use of AI, which is exciting, but they’re doing it in a way that is measured and cautious. And I think that’s a strong approach because there are so many tools and things out there, and I think we need to – while students may be using them already outside of the school day, I think giving students a strong foundation in how AI generally works, and then how it can be implemented within a structured environment, within a particular set of tools, I think is a way to go so that they get comfortable and then can apply those in the real world settings to the other things that they may or may not be using.

[00:22:08.830] – Josh

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, Kylie. It feels like districts, the early adopting districts, are just on sort of the brink of introducing that in classrooms for students in a lot of ways. What I’m hoping to see is some of those really personalized tutoring tools come into place. So things like Conmigo and I think Duolingo also has some Chat GPT integration. So that, know, if I was thinking of myself being in the classroom, those are the tools I would be most excited about getting in the hands of students.

[00:22:43.930] – Kylie

To add to that, I was talking with a school leader who was saying that one of their art teachers at the high school level is going to be creating a course for the following school year around different media that can be generated through AI. So it may look like, Steve, really just updating existing curriculums as well and looking for inroads and that’s one of the suggestions we have for those early entry points for embracing AI, is digital media curriculum. Anything that is related to steam curriculum, or anything related to even writing. Any areas where AI can very seamlessly be integrated, even a social studies class around where you’re talking about debate or ethics or social justice or something like that. There’s very easy ways to embed conversations around AI and get students to start thinking about algorithmic literacies that they’ll need to have in their future. One of the things that I’m really excited about, I know you had mentioned, where do you see schools that are really far ahead going? And so I can’t say that I personally know of schools like this, but one of the things that a speaker we had brought in to the IU who was on a panel for us, her name is Vicki Davis and she runs some blogs and things of her own.

[00:24:06.730] – Kylie

She had said back in August when we had her speak that students are going to need to be supervisors of AI and that they’re going to need to be managers. And I really hadn’t at that point in time made the connection. She was obviously much further than me, but I hadn’t made the connection that there are these one thing area of generative AI that’s growing is this autonomous AI. And Josh and I just have some brief experience using some of these tools ourselves, but students are going to have access to AI that’s going to act on their behalf and that’s going to be able to complete a set of goals or tasks that a student kind of assigns to them. And so one of the things I’m interested to see is how can we create self directed, self regulated learners that can manage and supervise AI. I think that’ll be really neat. And then I think that just – the things that AI can do to help people who may have an exceptionality, who may speak a different language or who may be learning a different language, I think that there are so many new opportunities about how we can learn that just excite me and feel like will make everything so much easier.

[00:25:28.420] – Kylie

Josh and I were talking about our CTE program at the Chester County Intermediate Unit and how rather than just thinking of an abstract concept of electrical engineering and how it works, we can use AI, AR, VR to help students to actually see and manipulate it in a digital space, which is really neat.

[00:25:51.510] – Steve

So I’ve been doing my pondering about whether the possibility is there for AI to really change schools and know that I speak this as a person who started teaching 50 years ago. So I’ve been through the process of change a lot of times that didn’t really lead to change. And as you were talking, Kylie, there’s a word that has been important in my work and that is getting us less focused on teaching and more focused on learning. And I think I was hearing a piece of that in your description of the power that AI could bring us. Am I on the right track there?

[00:26:48.650] – Kylie

Oh, definitely. It’s bringing to light right now, like I had mentioned earlier, a lot of new questions about teaching and learning that we maybe haven’t had to ask ourselves all that frequently, but when we are, for example, if a student, I was reading an article from a student’s perspective about using Chat GPT to work on an assignment, and the quote in the article was something along the lines of, yeah, Chat GPT smashed my assignment in 5 seconds. And so if a student can use AI to do an assignment in 5 seconds, should that be the assignment? And again, maybe we do need to put some parameters and say, actually it is really valuable for you to do this assignment? We really don’t want you to use AI. But it does bring to light questions of, hey, if AI can do this assignment, maybe we can ask our students to do an alternative assignment, which actually could be at a deeper level of thinking than we have in the past.

[00:27:52.270] – Steve

Driving the learning further.

[00:27:55.390] – Josh

I think in some ways, the boom of generative AI is similar to the start of the Covid-19 pandemic in the sense that there are these seismic shifts in the world, and it’s forcing us to really examine our practices in schools and districts that really we probably should have been looking at a long time ago but we didn’t really need know because everything was kind of steady and moving. I think, you know, it really is, Steve, like you were saying, it’s a chance to look at what school is and how we can make it better and different. And again, it’s not necessarily that AI itself is the only reason that we need to make that change, but it’s really kind of maybe forcing that change in a way it wasn’t before, and making us think about what is the purpose and value of schools in the 21st century?

[00:28:58.930] – Kylie

That’s a great example, a note of encouragement. I think initially there were questions about will AI replace jobs, will they replace teachers? And there are going to be some positions that are disrupted in industry based on all the projections I’ve read from LinkedIn and whatnot, about different jobs and different industries. But I think the one thing that makes teaching resilient is the relationships that we have with our students. And I do think though, that there can be a shift in teaching is the teacher being the sole content provider and the knowledge bearer. And if we have an AI tool that is helping a student to learn, okay, we’ll have to monitor the level of accuracy, depth, screen time, things like that, but does it free up the teacher then to really actually be more relationally connected to students as coaches, as mentors, as goal setters and encouragers? And maybe that actually provides a new opportunity that we didn’t have in the past, which I actually think could be more beneficial to our students in some ways. And I’m personally really excited about.

[00:30:20.670] – Steve

I’ve been playing with the term, “capacity builder” as the role for the teacher.

[00:30:26.910] – Kylie

What do you mean by capacity builder for…

[00:30:31.410] – Steve

Yeah, coaching the student’s capacity and certainly relationship being a large part of that. A whole lot of years back, when technology was first beginning to show up in classrooms, there was a university professor I worked with and his presentation to teachers and it goes back to influence the title I use here of the teacher having a partner with the technology. And his description was that if you had a co teacher who could do what the technology could do, then you wouldn’t choose to try and outdo them. If you had a teacher that had this expertise as your colleague, you’d find another role for you to play. And that in many ways that early sign of technology was creating that opportunity for the teacher. There’s a whole different set of roles that can be taken on here which create the stage for student learning potential to happen beyond the teacher being the source of putting the teaching out. It’s why I’ve been driven by that concept of getting more focused on learning than on teaching.

[00:31:51.770] – Kylie

Yeah, I think that has profound implications and seems like a really wise way to intentionally think about this.

[00:32:00.190] – Steve

So any last words of encouragement you’d like to lay out here for instructional coaches and school level leaders listening in?

[00:32:10.770] – Josh

I would say that it is a really exciting time to be involved in education. There’s a lot of innovation potential here with AI and even though that can be overwhelming and it can feel like too much to manage at times, it is something that is overall going to be good for students as long as we’re proactive with it. So that would be my kind of big picture message. And then within that it’s just if you’re a coach, if you’re an administrator, start think about what you’re doing in your own practice with AI and then that’ll start to help you find opportunities to bring it to students as well.

[00:32:56.590] – Kylie

I would say continue to be a lead learner. This is going to continue to change and there is too much knowledge and too much advancement happening over days with these tools and with the options for anyone to really have – I mean, if somebody is able to stay on top of all of these changes, I would like to meet them, maybe news outlets and whatnot, but it is very challenging. So I would say, try to build a professional learning community around you, whether that be in person with colleagues that you know, or even I feel like I have built a really wonderful professional learning community digitally. It could be through following folks who have different entry points into AI. It could be following Josh, myself, others, the Chester County Intermediate Unit. But really try to give yourself opportunity to learn with others in some capacity because it can be so overwhelming if you are the sole provider of kind of the AI implementation in your school or district, but know that there are others who can be thought partners. And also, I just want to mention, don’t hesitate to give us a call or send us an email or give us a follow or send us a message online.

[00:34:19.240] – Kylie

We love working with all schools around the country, around the state, so feel free to reach out to us anytime and we’re happy to be thought partners with you.

[00:34:30.400] – Steve

Perfect. We go international, too. That’s all right for you?

[00:34:32.610] – Kylie

Part of our mission at the Chester County Intermediate Unit is to reach Chester County, which is in Pennsylvania and beyond. So, yeah, we haven’t had a huge footprint at that point, internationally, taking over the globe, but we would love to work with anyone, anywhere. And we actually have gotten a lot of guidance from folks internationally, like Australia, like Josh said, this is something that we are all grappling with and is exciting because it really does unite us all.

[00:35:08.060] – Steve

So if I post your emails at the IU, best way for people to connect?

[00:35:16.490] – Kylie

Yeah. That’s the best way for them to connect with us. And then we also are posting things on the Chester County Intermediate Unit social media and our personal social medias, which we can give you a link to for the show notes as well.

[00:35:27.340] – Steve

Terrific, terrific. Well, thanks so much, folks. Really appreciate you being with us.

[00:35:33.570] – Kylie

Yeah, it was a real pleasure. Thanks for letting us get to chat with you about this.

[00:35:36.930] – Josh

It was. Thanks, Steve.

[00:35:40.210] – Steve [Outro]

Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn @stevebarkley or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.

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