Feedback doesn’t create learning by itself—learning happens when students reflect on, act upon, and integrate feedback into their work. Teachers don’t cause student achievement. Students do. Our role as educators is to design environments, tasks, and relationships that enable students to produce the learning behaviors that generate achievement. One of those critical learning behaviors is knowing how and being willing to use feedback.
Instructional coaches and coaching leaders are supporting teachers to build opportunities for students to profit from feedback, they should be looking to create the same opportunities for their feedback to be profitable for teachers.
Watch the “Austin’s Butterfly” video here.
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Podcast Transcript:
[00:00:00.000] – Steve [Intro]
Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.
[00:00:30.000] – Steve
Students and teachers maximizing the value of feedback. Consider this as a key to drive our thinking about feedback. Feedback doesn’t create learning by itself. Learning happens when students reflect on, act upon, and integrate feedback into their work. That matches the constant message that I frequently share, that teachers don’t cause student achievement, students do. Our role as educators is to design environments, tasks, and relationships that enable students to produce learning behaviors that generate achievement. One of those critical learning behaviors is knowing how and being willing to use feedback. In a podcast conversation that I had with Tom Shimmer, he identified that feedback is both simple and complex. Here are his thoughts.
[00:01:47.580] – Tom Schimmer
Feedback is monumental. Feedback gets almost unanimous support in the academic literature in terms of that’s how you raise student achievement. That’s how you increase learning. So learning increases through feedback. But the challenge we all face is that feedback is both simple and complex. It’s simple because we know feedback works. It’s complex because there is no absolute answer to the question of what works with feedback. Everything about feedback is context dependent and nuanced. So what works in one classroom may not work in another classroom or another school. So when we provide feedback to students, there are some fundamentals that we can follow. But one of the most The one of the most important things you can do is you can watch how your students respond to your feedback routine. So rather than chasing the perfect strategy, the goal would be to chase the perfect response, because feedback can only be called effective if it elicits a productive response from the recipient. So no matter what you do in feedback, if your students don’t take your feedback and don’t use it to advance their learning, you can’t call it effective. So I’ll often tell teachers, a teacher actually can’t say, I give my students effective feedback, but they ignore it.
[00:03:04.950] – Tom Schimmer
That’s not…So people will say, well, that is true. See, what you can say is, I give my students feedback and they ignore it. That you can say, but you can’t call it effective because to be called effective, it must trigger a learning response, right? That’s the point. So does it elicit more learning? Are you triggering more learning? Are you focused on feedback that is longitudinally applicable. Often, Steve, when I talk about feedback, I’ll say something very flippant, but it’s not flippant, but it sounds flippant. When you say to a group of teachers, make sure your feedback focuses on learning. And then everybody looks at me like, oh, great idea, Tom. Never thought of that in my 25 years of teaching or whatever. But here’s my point. The research on feedback is nuanced, and I’ll try to be brief with this, but the research on feedback is nuanced to the point where you could provide effective feedback to a student that helps them improve acutely on performing on a particular task, but it doesn’t impact their long term learning because you’re focused more on the immediate task. So when you change the task, the feedback is not transferable.
[00:04:20.020] – Tom Schimmer
So a quick example, if we were talking about making an argument, formulating an argument, argumentative writing, and the first task I asked you to do was write a a letter to the editor of a local newspaper or some local issue that you wanted to argue in favor or against or something like that, and we did that, and I provided you feedback on your letter. Now, the next time I ask you to formulate an argument, it might be an argument iterative essay. The feedback on your letter, the structure of your letter, et cetera, is not transferable to an essay. But if my feedback on the first task was focused on your ability to formulate an argument, make a claim, support it with details, acknowledge the counterclaim, all of those things, that feedback is transferable. And that’s how you can actually, in some cases, not improve the short term task, but actually have an impact on their long term learning. And that’s what we should be focused on is how do we impact their long term learning? So that’s what I mean. It sounds flippant to say focus on learning, but there is method to that madness, which means we have to have an eye on this is like a long game.
[00:05:27.060] – Tom Schimmer
We want to impact their long term memory or their long term learning so that how they formulate because the third activity might be a debate. Now, what do I do? I’m not even writing anything. It’s a debate format. So how is that feedback transferable? It’s one of the most important nuances that we have to remind ourselves about feedback. So simple, we know feedback works. Complex because we have to pay close attention to how our students respond, and that will tell us whether or not our feedback was effective.
[00:05:55.020] – Steve
At the start of a school year or a new course, teachers preparing students to maximize the value of feedback they receive can have a valuable impact on extending student learning. Consider the question, what do students need to know and believe about my feedback? And how will I communicate that message to my students? Students need to believe that feedback is about growth, not judgment. It’s not about being right or wrong. It’s about finding the next step forward. That means exploring a growth mindset. It’s a belief that mastery is going to happen, perhaps, not yet. Students need to trust the source. They need to trust that their teacher or their peer or their parent wants them to succeed and improve. In other In other words, the provider of the feedback is my coach, and that coach is invested in my success and believes that I will succeed. Students need to know how to act upon feedback. Students don’t automatically know what to do with a comment like, add more detail, or, check your reasoning. Teachers must model how to revise work, self assess and ask clarifying questions. An effective feedback culture is built on trust, collaboration, and safety.
[00:07:42.160] – Steve
Students need to feel safe sharing work that isn’t finished yet. They need to see mistakes as opportunities for growth, not as failures. They need to learn how to give and receive peer feedback. Ron Berger provides three straightforward guidelines to providing a critique. Listen in on his description.
[00:08:10.500] – Ron Berger
I used to have about 10 rules for critique, but nobody could remember them. Finally, after using 10 forgettable rules for 10 years or whatever, I got critique on my presentations and on my work, which was good, sharp, smart critique that enabled me to cut that down to the three most important things: be kind, be specific, be helpful. There are certainly other pointers you could give someone. Use “I” statement, start with a positive before you use critical things, ask things as a question rather than a definitive statement. There’s lots of guidelines that used to be part of my 10. But now when I walk into a kindergarten, kids will say, oh, I know you. You’re the kind, specific, helpful guy. We use those rules. People really do remember those rules. It’s very simple. But to see them in practice, imagine, Michelle, that you’re in a ballet class as a kid or as an adult, and you’re in a position. The teacher is going to walk by you, put her hand gently on your shoulder and say, Michelle, your shoulders are just right. That’s exactly right. It’s being kind. But look at your back leg. Do you see, if you could move that back leg just a little bit more to get yourself in a line here, think of how different that’s going to be.
[00:09:36.080] – Ron Berger
Now, try that. See how different that is? Okay, concentrate on that next time you take that position. Then she walks on to the next person. Then you think, I felt good about that. She was complementary, but I know exactly what I was doing wrong. It was specific and helpful. The next time I’m in that position, I’m going to be just right here. That’s the model in my mind. Can we be kind, specific, and helpful all the time and giving each other pointers, which allow us to make those small adjustments to get better.
[00:10:05.720] – Steve
Years back, Ron Berger created a great video example of feedback that is kind, specific, and helpful. He shares several iterative pictures by a first grader named Austin, working on a drawing of a tiger butterfly. Different elementary students that are seated with Ron practice deciding the feedback they would give Austin after each of his iterations. Ron shares the feedback then that Austin received and shows Austin’s next drawing. Students are amazed at Austin’s progress and awed by his completed project, as I was, and so are many adults who see the video for the first time. If you haven’t seen that clip, you can find it by simply searching, “Austin’s Butterfly,” but I’ll also put the link in the podcast lead-in. The Austin’s Butterfly video was made many years back, but teachers are still finding it a great way to explore giving and receiving feedback. Listen into this short conversation from Becky Carlson in a virtual workshop from Learning Pioneers as she shares how she uses the video with her elementary students. And then, Trevor McKenzie extends sharing how he uses it with older students.
[00:11:41.840] – Becky Carlson
I wanted to pick up on as well in the chat, Fiona sharing about using Austin’s Butterfly that you created, Ron, with students. I’ve done that with four, five, six-year-olds. As soon as I discovered it, I was like, oh, this has got so much rich language in it. Let’s watch it with the children and pick out that language exactly like you shared. And watching that twice in a school year has the most immense impact if the children are ready to pick out that language and you use it and refer to it because it’s such a great model of kind, specific critique. So yes, picking out that language and Austin’s Butterfly is such a great resource for that. And children love it because it’s children. People just like me doing this. I can do it, too. And then obviously that the finished product of seeing how much that butterfly is improved is hugely motivating to children. I could do that, too. So I think for the piece of what made reflection and feedback really meaningful for my young students, watching Austin’s Butterfly twice and unpicking it and using that language. We had a display that we put above our whiteboard that said Superpower Learners Say.
[00:12:56.760] – Becky Carlson
And that was exactly what you were both describing. It was picking out learning English language for learning that the children were saying and then saying, why is this powerful and what impact could it have? And it’s in their words. And again, like you were saying, Ron, because they were young children. They were always really… They just had a real way with words. So it came up with something you’d never expect them to have… You wouldn’t have come up with it as an adult, but it was in their speak, so it was more powerful. Those were some of my thoughts around that. I don’t know if there’s anything you want to come back with before we go to the next question.
[00:13:29.040] – Trevor McKenzie
Yeah, let me just quickly insert my high school voice here, so forgive me, but everything you’re referencing, Becky, with younger learners, let’s just say learners, high school kids as well, Austin’s Butterfly with the Younger Years class, we just showed that to students in Mesa, Arizona, as a provocation to get them ready for language that’s kind, specific, and helpful. And so we often look at practices and inquiry and feedback and these student-centered protocols as great at the younger years, great at all years, aren’t they? Great at all years. So I just wanted to insert But if you’re in a different context, Austin’s Butterfly is a provocation, fantastic for all years.
[00:14:07.940] – Steve
As instructional coaches and coaching leaders are supporting teachers to build opportunities for students to profit from feedback, they should also be looking at how they create the same opportunities for their feedback to be profitable for teachers. Several years back, I was keynoting a conference on the topic of coaching. Ron Berger had keynoted that conference the previous day with the focus on feedback being kind, specific, and helpful. Fortunately, I was able to attend his presentation, and the next day, I built into my coaching presentation how kind, specific, and helpful were effective coaching strategies. Kindness is present when a coach invest in knowing a teacher and communicating a belief in the importance of the teacher’s work and a belief in the teacher’s ability to achieve success with students. Specific feedback is critical to teachers’ opportunities to reflect on student learning production behaviors. What a coach saw and heard rather than any conclusion the coach draws from observing, is the value of a teacher having an extra set of eyes and ears in the classroom. The coaches and teacher’s specific observations can lead to co-construction constructive meaning. Helpful, for me, means empowering. I tend to avoid the words, “helping a teacher” unless the teacher uses the term first in requesting help from me.
[00:16:02.400] – Steve
See, I find that a helper can be construed as someone being a level above the person that’s being helped. What makes coaching helpful is that it is future-focused. The experience takes the teacher and their students closer to the goal. Here are some questions to reflect upon as this school year begins. For teachers: How do I prepare students to use the feedback that I’ve provided? What routines, modeling, or conversations set students up to act upon feedback? What beliefs do I want students to have about feedback? How do I communicate that feedback is caring, safe, and focused on growth and not judgmental? For coaches and instructional leaders: You might be asking yourselves, how do I model the same feedback practices that I encourage teachers to implement? Do I invite feedback on my own coaching or my leadership? In other words, how coachable am I? When I give teachers feedback, do I make space for them to process and respond? In other words, is feedback a dialog? For everyone to consider: What would change in our school culture if every feedback conversation between students, teachers, and leaders was guided by these three questions posed by Hattie and Timberley.
[00:17:56.900] – Steve
Where am I going? In other words, clarity on the goal. How am I going? What’s the current progress? And where to next? Are the action steps identified? I hope this podcast has generated some reflection on the possibilities for enhancing the value of feedback. Because feedback is simple and complex. I’d appreciate any feedback you might share about this podcast, especially feedback that is kind, specific, and helpful. As always, thanks for listening in. You can reach me at barclaypd.com.
[00:18:48.320] – Steve [Outro]
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Steve Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barclaypd.com.
