Rigor doesn’t mean more work, and it doesn’t mean figuring it out on your own without support. It should mean achievement at a level just outside of a student’s ability to do things unaided. Just like temporary building support structures, scaffolds for learners are designed to provide access to rigorous learning for all. We want our learners to have what they need to experience productive struggle at a higher level of challenge. James Fester describes strategies to create that support.
Read James’ article, “How to Scaffold Learning and Maintain Rigor” here.
Visit the National Park Classroom website here.
Visit James’ website and get in contact here.
Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!
Podcast Transcript:
[00:00:00.340] – Steve [Intro]
Welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. As instructional coaches and school leaders, you are tasked with guiding continuous teacher growth to create student success. This podcast looks to support you with strategies from experienced guests, as well as my own insights that I’ve gathered over the years. I’m thrilled to have you with us. Thanks for tuning in.
[00:00:30.050] – Steve
Rigor and scaffolding. The terms, scaffolding and rigor were in a title of an Edutopia article by James Fester, and it caught my attention and led me to extend an invitation for him to join the podcast. His article, “How to Scaffold Learning and Maintain Rigor,” presents tools and strategies that support learning and student agency that are essential to maintaining rigor. James supports educators with instructional coaching, professional learning, and curriculum development with a specialty in learner-centered instruction and management that helps teachers and their students adapt to the changing educational landscape. He is a national faculty member for PBL Works and is recognized internationally as an expert in project-based learning. Welcome, James.
[00:01:30.990] – James
Thanks so much, Steve. I really appreciate the invitation.
[00:01:34.500] – Steve
So we’ve had a few guests on the podcast earlier explore rigor, but I’m thinking we probably ought to start with your description of what you mean by rigor in learning.
[00:01:46.540] – James
For sure. So when I – and it’s a word that I hear a lot, it gets thrown around a lot in education, and I feel like if you ask 10 people, you’d probably get 10 fairly different definitions. So when I think of rigor, I think of learning that takes place just outside or just within what we know as the zone of proximal development. So it’s just hard enough to not be easy, but it’s just easy enough to not be impossible. So it’s that sweet spot that we know from research is where growth lies, where students are pushed a little bit, they don’t get the answer or they aren’t able to complete the task immediately, but it is, and it’s through that thinking, through that struggle, through that little bit of cognitive exercise that growth really takes place. That’s kind of what I think of what comes to mind for me when I hear the word rigor.
[00:02:44.950] – Steve
So a lot of our listeners are instructional coaches, and I know that that’s part of your role and your background. So if coaches were exploring rigor with teachers, either in a PLC setting or in coaching conferences, what are some questions that they might use to engage teachers in reflecting about rigor?
[00:03:09.750] – James
For sure. I think, and it should definitely be a part of the conversation. It should always be something that is explored. I think it’s important to make sure that even if you come in with ideas or suggestions of what it could be like to ensure that rigor exists in a lesson, a unit, or in a class, that there is always a conversation where you kind of explore what that means and what that looks like with the other person, you know, it’s something I always think about in my coaching. I always try, when, even if a teacher comes to me, that I always come at them from the standpoint of a guest, like I am a guest in their space. I’m a guest in their planning process and I try to conduct myself that way. So I don’t want to come in and immediately tell them all the things that I think that they should do or what they’re doing wrong. It’s an important part of a coaching relationship to come in with a little bit of humility, kind of like you are a guest conducting yourself as such. So In terms of talking about rigor, what I would first want to start with is thinking about, well, what is the actual goal of the unit, the lesson, whatever it is?
[00:04:09.690] – James
Where do you want all of your students to be by the end? The beginning with the end in mind, backwards design or backwards thinking kind of things. Because that’s the purpose is we want to make sure that whatever the lesson, the unit, whatever it is that we’re talking about, we start with where we want all students to get. Where do we want them to be? And then we start with, well, where are they right now? Like, in the learning sequence and the instruction, like if it’s in math, for example, and we want all of them to be able to calculate perimeter and area independently. Well, what does it look like right now? What can they do? What kinds of things might they need support to be able to build up to that? Because we want to make sure that we are thinking about all of our learners and there, you know, there probably will need to be some differentiation, some scaffolding, which I know we’re going to talk about a little bit more, but where do you want them to be? Where are they right now? And what would it look like to kind of push them just a little bit beyond where – what would it look like to push them or to get them a little bit beyond where they are now so that they can start making progress towards mastery?
[00:05:07.140] – James
And, you know, trying to be as specific as possible. One of the things that kind of drives me bananas is when you have these coaching conversations, but they’re very pie in the sky or very, you know, too broad where a teacher couldn’t immediately leave that conversation and then do something within the next 5 minutes in their classroom. So I really try to keep it strategy-based. I really try to keep it specific, like here’s a resource, here’s a worksheet, here’s a lesson idea, here’s a teaching strategy that you can use to get them from where they are to where they need to be so that they are demonstrating full mastery. Those are the kinds of things that I really try to bring in to those conversations when I’m having them.
[00:05:45.340] – Steve
So I’m big in my coaching and work with teachers and a term that I use, took me a long time to arrive at it, but it’s student learning production behaviors. And so I work on the focus that teachers don’t cause student achievement, students cause student achievement, which is why the rigor issue is important. If rigor isn’t there, you’re unlikely to be getting the student learning behaviors that are going to be producing that next step in learning. So I’m real big on In the early part of my career, I spent a lot of time watching teachers and giving teachers feedback on what I saw the teacher doing. And now the majority of my time is watching kids and giving the teacher feedback on what I saw the kids do. And as I was just listening to you, I’m getting this picture in my mind that we’re kind of shooting for the Goldilocks moment here. Rigor insufficient – if I was watching the kids, what would be an indicator that the rigor is insufficient? If I was watching the kids, what would be an indicator that the rigor’s too high? And what would be the indicator that says, yeah, I probably get the rigor correct?
[00:07:03.040] – James
Yeah, and I like that a lot. And I might even add to that, the look-fors are super important, but I think just as important are the listen-fors because what kinds of things would you hear students or what kinds of things – if they are not getting it, if it’s too much or if it’s not enough – a great activity that I was introduced to is you create a Y chart. So you just get like a big old piece of chart paper or a piece of paper, whatever, and you draw a big letter Y on it. So you’re dividing it into 3 spaces. It would be a good thing to do as a group session, like a group kind of envisioning things like rigor looks like, rigor sounds like, and rigor feels like. Yeah, because again, it’s things that you’re bringing yourself in and you’re kind of thinking about what a student might be experiencing or what you want to put yourself in the standpoint of what a student is going to feel when they are experiencing when they’re in their classroom. And to do that, you really do need to think about it like from a term of look, see, and feel as well.
[00:08:06.970] – James
You need all of those things – or look, hear and feel, excuse me, because all three of those things are such, are ways that we take info into a classroom, or if you were doing observations, those are the three things you would really be looking for.
[00:08:21.170] – Steve
As I’m hearing that, it’s striking me that’d be an awesome thing to do with the kids.
[00:08:25.720] – James
That’s an interesting thought too. I think that’s an awesome thing and an awesome opportunity to do because, you know, it’s like we always tell teachers when you’re trying to craft essential questions or driving questions for PBL projects, and they’re supposed to be student-friendly language. You’ll have the students tell you, and then you’ll know for sure it’s in student-friendly language and something that a student can understand. I think that’s a really smart idea.
[00:08:48.710] – Steve
I’m just getting the picture as I was listening to you, third grader walking up to you and saying, you know, “I think the rigor’s too much on this.” [laughter]
[00:08:58.180] – James
[laughter] And they would totally do that.
[00:08:59.870] – Steve
Where I really want kids to be is to point out to me when the rigor is insufficient.
[00:09:05.970] – James
Yeah, certainly.
[00:09:08.300] – Steve
I used to do an activity where we’d have kids, before they handed in a project or something they completed, have to put an effort score on the top. So on a scale of 1 to 7, how much effort did you put into this? So I would describe that a student could have it all done perfectly. And tell you that the effort was a 2 because they knew exactly how to do it and all they had to do. And then how as a teacher do I get into a conversation with that? Where on another one, the student might be totally stuck and not have made any progress at all. And without the conversation, our assumption is the student didn’t put in sufficient effort. But to give the kid the opportunity to talk to us about everything he did and what it felt like as they were doing. Powerful connection for the teacher.
[00:10:05.870] – James
For sure. And I also, I always tell teachers when they’re planning their units or they’re planning their instructional sequences, if they’re doing PBL, when they’re planning their projects, the last day of a unit or a project is not when you turn the thing in or present the thing. It’s the next day when you pause, you reflect, you have a conversation about next steps, and you celebrate achievement. That’s the last day of a unit or a project. And a student – an individual student reflection that asks exactly that, like, what grade do you think you deserve? Or how much effort did you put forward? Always think that’s a really helpful thing because number one, you don’t always catch everything. Students who are really engaged will continue to work outside of class. And I can think of many times that I saw a student who was in class giving what I thought was kind of like average effort only to find out thanks to one of those independent reflection that like, oh, he was staying up until 3 AM every night doing all of this additional stuff. And they’re very, very fair for the most part about giving feedback.
[00:11:07.970] – James
In fact, I feel like they’re a little bit too critical sometimes. I’ve had kids that are like, “I think I deserve a D for this effort.” I’m like, “Gosh, I was going to give you a B+.” Like, whoa, kids, slow down.
[00:11:18.380] – Steve
Yeah, the key is to get them to talk about what they did.
[00:11:24.720] – James
Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:25.990] – Steve
And, you know, right on, the learning comes from the reflection. That is the most important part of that.
[00:11:33.100] – James
For sure.
[00:11:35.090] – Steve
In your article, you describe scaffolding as being interdependent with rigor.
[00:11:41.100] – James
Yeah.
[00:11:41.360] – Steve
So I’m wondering if you’d walk us through that connection.
[00:11:44.950] – James
For sure. So the whole article kind of came out of this really great conversation that I had during a coaching workshop. I was working in Massachusetts at a district just north of Boston. And these people that I was in the workshop with were teacher leaders that had been identified by their schools as people who are really having success with the project-based learning initiative, and they wanted to turn them basically, for lack of a better term, into the lighthouses of their school. So the people that draw others in by sharing their knowledge, like a lighthouse draws a boat into a harbor, they’re going to be the teachers that draw other people in towards the idea of PBL in the classroom. And we always start off with like, here are the goals for the workshop, here’s what we’re going to accomplish over our 3 days together, what do you guys need to know in order to be able to feel like we can get through all of these these things in 3 days and you can go back to your schools and basically be the coaches and peer supports? And one of the first questions was, do I choose rigor or do I choose scaffolding?
[00:12:47.070] – James
And that one I’ve gotten it before, but like the group was really, it was very, there was a big discussion right off the bat about whether or not which one was more important. Because if I scaffold, then everything gets easier and so there’s no longer rigor. But I’m told that I have to hold rigor and where do I, how do I do that without having students who need scaffolds as a way to access learning, you know, feel excluded? And we did the workshop, I would go back to the hotel I was staying at and I stayed up and I just read a ton because the conversation was really about which is more important. And my inclination was you kind of have to have both. And I did some reading and some research. I read some other things that were really informative. I talked to one of my thought partners that is always a very dependable person, one of my coworkers. And we kind of came to that conclusion, which is like, wow, this is kind of a – this might be a misconception that you have to choose one or the other, where really scaffolding is how you get to rigor.
[00:13:51.560] – James
The scaffolding are the steps, the strategies, the modifications, the changes, the in-the-moment things that you do for students to allow them to progress when they confront barriers. So we think about it a lot as something that’s done exclusively for special ed students or those with special needs. That’s not true. It’s something that we all need regardless of what it is. We’re approached with a new task, especially a really difficult one. How do we get from where our understanding is way down low to where we need to be to accomplish that task, which is much higher? Well, you build a scaffold just like you would build a scaffold on the side of the building to reach a new height. So scaffolding is how you get to rigor, and some students require more and some students require less. Some students require, you know, direction to ensure that they use the scaffolds, and some are just fine without that direction. They can go on, you know, that’s where the conversation really is, is, well, what are we doing? You know, and there’s lots of different things to scaffold. Is it the process? Is it the content? Is it the language?
[00:14:50.360] – James
Is it…That’s what the conversation really needs to be more about, and that’s why I wrote the article, because I really wanted people to see you don’t have to choose one or the other. You should be choosing both, if that makes sense.
[00:15:03.100] – Steve
Yeah, it’s making a ton of sense to me. I think I’m one of those people who carried a little bit of a misconception from the issue that I thought there were times that I saw teachers over-scaffold. But I thought it was occurring because some of the kids needed the scaffolding, but the teacher put everybody through the scaffolding. And so the kids who didn’t need the scaffolding weren’t getting to the next rigor level because of it. So as I’m listening to you now, I’m kind of capturing up on the word – kind of capturing on the word available. If I can have scaffolding available, and the ideal spot would be to reach the point where the student is empowered to use the scaffolding when it helps their learning and not use it when it gets in the way of their learning.
[00:16:02.060] – James
Exactly, and that’s the key. And what I mean by that is that, you know, generally when scaffolds are first introduced, it’s the teacher that provides them. They think about the lesson, they think about what they need to do, they think about and consider the needs of their student, and then they select a scaffold that will help get them from where they are to where they need to be, right? You know, everything from, word banks to additional instruction to, turn-in talks to sentence stems, whatever it is. There’s a whole bunch of different things, right? Now, the first time that a scaffold is introduced, the teacher should absolutely be the one that introduces it. Modeling is super helpful. It’s like if somebody was to hand you a power tool and you had no idea how to use it, it’s not very helpful. You need to be shown how to use it or figure that out somehow. And then once you get that instruction, you can use it and it’s useful to you. It’s a tool, not just a paperweight on your workbench. And that’s just how everything kind of exists and works in the world.
[00:17:07.490] – James
But once you are proficient with that scaffold, you should be able to pick it up and use it at any time. You should recognize, here’s the challenge. When I encountered this challenge last time, this is what I used in order to succeed. I need to go find blank. That’s what we need students to do for the rest of their lives. We need that, and that’s what lifelong learning is, recognizing that there’s a gap in your knowledge, a gap in your skills, and being able to chart a course to get to where you need to be with all things. And so we talk a lot about like, well, at what point do I remove the scaffold? At what point do I take it away? And it’s not so much that you’re taking it away, it’s just that you’re not being the one that’s providing it anymore. The student is recognizing the need, they’re going and getting it themselves, and that right there is agency. That’s where you want them to get to. There are definitely instances where something is – where you want to kind of know or need some sort of assessment data on exactly where they are, like with their natural skill.
[00:18:05.170] – James
Outside of, like if you need to know if they know their times tables, you’re not going to give them the scaffold of a multiplication table, but that’s a little bit different than day-to-day and trying to scaffold for student independence so that they can reach higher levels of achievement or higher levels of skill. That’s really what we want them to do, and we want to make sure also, it’s super important that we don’t always provide them that scaffold. Once we see that they no longer need it anymore, we got to stop providing it because we don’t want them to become dependent on us or think that, hey, every time I have to do X, teacher is going to give me why, so I’ll just sit here and wait. We want them to recognize it, be their own advocate and their own support. So I think that’s a really important part of the conversation, not just over-scaffolding, like providing too much, but over-scaffolding in being the one who is always the provider.
[00:18:55.440] – Steve
You’ve sparked a piece I hadn’t thought about for quite a while. My wife was an assistant principal for a while, and she was looking to observe perseverance in, I think it was second grade, and there were like 3 second grade classrooms, and she went in with this activity with kids in pairs, and she would give them a problem for them to work on and kind of track the perseverance. And this one teacher’s classroom, the perseverance was substantially higher than in the other two classrooms. And so it had her scratching her head in follow-up observations to see if she could pick something up. And one of the things she identified is the teacher had a manipulative table.
[00:19:47.820] – Steve
And when the kids were working on this math problem, they would get up, go back and get a manipulative, come back. And they might decide that that manipulative wasn’t helpful, they would go put it back and get a different one. So if I was to go back to your thing, I’m sure that at some point the teacher modeled how all the manipulatives worked, and now the kids know they’re empowered. These are here for you to use when you need them, and you begin to figure out when the manipulative is helpful to you.
[00:20:21.670] – James
For sure. Yeah, I think letting that – because there are multiple ways of scaffolding for every kind of need and sometimes what you think might be the most useful isn’t what students really need or want or what is most useful to them. So like if you have multiple things that they can try and I see this a lot, especially in math classes. I think math classes, especially in math teachers do a great way of encouraging students to find multiple ways of solving a problem. You know, that’s very – I think that’s, that’s in the math standards like multiple times, find many ways of doing X, Y, or Z. And kind of if we could take a lesson from those classrooms, like there are many different ways of getting from, in all subjects, getting from where you are to the end of a task. You know, we talk about individualization and how important that is for students all the time, and oh, it’s so hard, you know, I can’t, I can’t be creating independent learning pathways for every task. It’s like, well, maybe you don’t need to, maybe you just need to provide the resources and then let the students have some voice and choice in which one they pick, then it’s kind of not your responsibility to be, creating 8, 9, 10 different learning pathways for 8, 9, 10 different learning needs.
[00:21:34.380] – Steve
So James, am I safe to say that you would suggest PBL provides great opportunities for students to experience rigor?
[00:21:45.170] – James
I would indeed. And I would say that for a bunch of reasons. For folks that aren’t familiar with project-based learning, I’d highly encourage you to look into it a little bit more than the 30 seconds that I’m about to give. But essentially, project-based learning, it’s a way of teaching. It’s not a thing to teach. It’s a way of teaching where students develop knowledge and skills by trying to solve or trying to create answers to real-world situations or real-world challenges and questions through inquiry. That’s like kind of a very like, that’s the rough definition of what it is. So it takes the form of projects, you know, but it’s really the process where students learn. They learn a little bit, they apply it in some way, but they apply it or demonstrate their understanding of what they’ve learned by creating a piece of a product, and then they get feedback on it before they move on to the next standard, and they learn a little, work a little, do it. And there’s a lot of things – there’s a couple of things that make it rigorous.
[00:22:43.500] – James
First, it’s the real-world nature of it. Like when you tell students, hey, we’re going to go out, you know, we’re going to study the Colorado River watershed and solve the water crisis. I mean, like, okay, we’ve been trying to solve that for as long as I lived in California and are still struggling with that today. So that’s one thing, the real-world nature of the problems and the real-world urgency of the needs that they’re filling lend themselves to rigor. Another one is it tends to be a very student-centered or learner-centered way of teaching. A lot of the emphasis of the knowledge building or the knowledge providing is taken off of the teacher and instead put on the student through structured and sustained inquiry. And then the other part that’s really rigorous is that the work, when it’s done, doesn’t just go to the teacher’s desk, get a grade, and go to a file cabinet. They present it publicly and are asked questions or have to interact with either the public or whoever sees it when it’s published. That’s a very rigorous thing too, because now it goes from something that’s just going to be inside of the classroom to something that is gonna fulfill a need outside of the classroom and has to be at a professional level.
[00:23:45.920] – James
And the way you get there is using professional tools and professional-like processes. So all of those things mean, in my mind, that it is, I think, one of the best ways of ensuring that rigor is in a classroom. And even if you’re not always doing a PBL project, because not, you know, there are schools that are wall-to-wall PBL, that just one project go rolls into the next. I don’t think you have to do that. I never got to that point. But you can always be doing PBL-like things in your class even between projects. And so all of those things that I mentioned lend themselves to and lead students along pathways of rigorous learning.
[00:24:21.840] – Steve
So that rigor would then suggest that the scaffolding needs to be an issue that the teacher’s thinking about and planning for in that PBL activity.
[00:24:34.980] – James
Yeah.
[00:24:36.270] – Steve
I’m wondering if you might give us an example of one, maybe one small piece of a PBL activity and just to be able to describe where the scaffolding might fit in with that particular activity.
[00:24:54.000] – James
So one example of a PBL activity and what scaffolds could look like. Yeah, for sure. One thing that’s always really tricky to do in project-based learning with students of all ages is the idea of critique and peer feedback. High-quality work comes from critique and revision. That’s the goal. That’s the pathway that leads to high-quality work. And a lot of students are not particularly experienced or even really good at it right away. You can’t be good at something right out of the gate. Most of us don’t do that. You know, we don’t just see a bike for the first time, hop on, and then ride it without falling over. So there needs to be an on-ramp to help them recognize not just what good feedback is, but how to give it in a way that is helpful and useful and leads to people revising their work and making it better. Because a lot of times, like, I taught middle school. A lot of times when I would introduce feedback at the beginning of the year, student peer feedback, their feedback could be divided up into one of two categories. They would look at a piece of peer work and they’d either say, “that’s really good,” or, “oh, that sucks.”
[00:25:55.090] – James
End of list. Okay, well, that tells me something about what you think about my work, but is it helpful, specific, or dare I say kind? No, it’s going to make me not want to listen to what you have to say. So we have to teach them that. And there’s a process to scaffold. There are scaffolds that you can provide. One of the easiest ones is sentence stems. “I think this is good because…” “I like blank because you did blank.” “You could improve this by changing blank.” Just giving them something simple like that. That’s the first thing is to teach them that they can’t just say what they think. They have to think what they think and then why. Or what could be changed specifically. So that’s one thing you can do. Another thing you can do is actually just modeling that process yourself. One thing I would always do, one of the first units I taught every year when I was teaching 8th grade social studies was US geography. You know, give them a little bit of a background about the places that we’re going to be talking about when we start talking about US history.
[00:26:49.450] – James
And I would start out by – we would do some map work. You know, it’s an important social studies skill being able to identify and produce maps that tell information. And so I would produce a map of the US, and I would make it chock full of mistakes, like just, you know, misspell things, coloring errors, you know, mislabeling. I would make a ton of mistakes, and I would show the kids my map and say, hey, what do you think? And of course, regardless of how much they knew, they could identify that, okay, California is definitely not located next to Nebraska. So they would then start giving me – I would say, “well, what should I do to improve improve this?” And then they would start giving me suggestions. And then I would say, “well, what you’re doing is you’re giving me feedback. This is what I want you to be doing for each other.” And inevitably, one kid would say something like, “oh, Mr. Fester, my suggestion would be that you throw it away. That would improve the quality.” And that’s important too, because it gave me an opportunity to say, like, “well, I hear what you’re saying.
[00:27:47.680] – James
I know you’re just trying to be funny. But if I didn’t know that, how would that make me feel? And what do you think I would do?” And so then we talk about why feedback has to be delivered in a certain way or the best way to deliver it. So modeling, providing sentence stems, you know, doing a fishbowl, like if you have a couple kids that are really good at feedback, get them in front of the entire class, let the class see what’s going on. I’m very much one of those people that if you could give me an example of what you want me to do, I can totally do it. But those examples and those exemplars, especially when they come from their peers, are like super helpful scaffolds. So those are 3 things that I would say right off the top. Help really move kids from low-level unhelpful feedback to something that’s really specific and helpful.
[00:28:30.810] – Steve
Well, James, when I read your article and I wanted to reach out to you, I knew that you would cause reflection for me and learning, and I really appreciate you did that. And I’m sure it’s true for our listeners too. Before we wrap up, I did notice as I looked at your site that you’ve published a new book called, “The National Park Classroom.”
[00:28:56.230] – James
Yes.
[00:28:56.890] – Steve
Give us a little info on that.
[00:28:58.880] – James
I would love to. So it’s actually coming up on its 1-year anniversary being out. I think it was first released in March, was it? It’s been a while. It’s been out for a while. It’s a book published by ISTE, and it is a book that is meant for the kind of – the thesis of it is what can classroom teachers learn or how can they improve their practice by looking at what education looks like on public lands. So it looks at and provides examples of what it looks like, of what education looks like, what strategies are used, the way that teaching is done. When you go to a national park, a state park, or a nature center or something like that, I use national parks just because they are the largest and most well-known public land system in the US, but by no means the only one. And I use the lens of project-based learning because again, that’s my expertise, but I also think that’s the best way to make sure that students are prepared for college, career, and what comes next. So you can definitely check it out.
[00:29:55.890] – James
You can check it out on my website, which maybe we can put in the show notes or something. But it’s a really great read and it’s a great gift if you have teachers in your life or educators in your life who love camping and going to national parks. It’s a big hit. And, you know, if any of your listeners are headed out to national parks this summer, you should definitely check in at the bookstores because it’s actually being carried in about a dozen national park gift shops as we speak, which is super exciting to be able to say. I’m super proud of that.
[00:30:27.570] – Steve
Well, we will post the link to your article, the link to the book, and the link to your website in the podcast lead-in. So thanks so much, James. I really appreciate your time and your thoughts. It has triggered reflection for me.
[00:30:46.520] – James
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me here. I really appreciate the opportunity.
[00:30:51.280] – Steve
Take care.
[00:30:52.290] – James
Yep, you too.
[00:30:54.720] – Steve [Outro]
Thanks for listening, folks. I’d love to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn @SteveBarkley or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.
