Podcast - Instructional Coaching: Relationships, Data, Action - Steve Barkley

Podcast – Instructional Coaching: Relationships, Data, Action

Natalie Ulloa, a secondary instructional coach with a background in instructional design and Steven Baule, a professor in the Leadership Education Department at Winona State University, discuss coach and principal roles in building a collaborative culture for continuous growth. Building and maintaining trust is highlighted.

Read the article, “How to Build Relationships With Instructional Coaches”
Contact Natalie Ulloa: profe.ulloa16@gmail.com
Contact Steven Baule: steven.baule@winona.edu

Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!


Steve [Intro]: 00:00 Hello and welcome to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast. Instructional coaches and leaders create the environment that supports teachers to continually imagine, grow and achieve. They model an excitement for learning that teachers in turn model for students. This podcast is dedicated to promoting the important aspects of instructional leadership. Thanks for listening. I’m thrilled you’re here.

Steve: 00:33 Instructional coaching: relationships, data action. Joining us today are Natalie Ulloa, an instructional coach from Iowa, and Steve
Baule, a professor in the education leadership department at Winona State University. I read an article that they had posted on how to build relationships with instructional coaches and I invited them to join us. Welcome, Natalie and Steve.

Steve Baule: 01:04 Hello.

Natalie: 01:04 Thank you for having us.

Steve: 01:06 You bet. Natalie, would you start by giving us a little introduction to yourself and your current role in coaching?

Natalie: 01:16 Absolutely. So my name is Natalie Ulloa and I am a high school instructional coach, 9-12. My interest in coaching started when I went back to school to get my masters of science in instructional design and technology, and the idea of working in partnership with subject matter experts and designing learning products looked fascinating to me and integrating technology in the classroom is part of it as well. I love technology and it’s applications in learning environments. So before I applied for this job, that was my introduction to collaborating with other coworkers.

Steve: 02:08 There was a natural collaboration role that came through as the technology person.

Natalie: 02:15 Yes, I was already leaving PD even though I was a classroom teacher and it was going very well and I discovered that I wanted to do this for a living. So when the position became available in my building, I applied for it and I was very lucky to get the position.

Steve: 02:36 Is your focus in your current position – is it a technology focus or is it broadened out from that?

Natalie: 02:46 It’s many hats. I wear many hats. My strength is technology and I also have a computer science endorsement. And so it is a little bit of IT with a little bit of IDT, instructional design and technology. I do all the data and also look at instruction.

Steve: 03:08 Great. Steve, give us a little introduction to your background. I was pondering where coaching is fitting into the leadership programs these days.

Steve Baule: 03:21 My background first is that, generally speaking, I spent about 30 years in K-12 education as a classroom teacher. I originally taught history, actually in rural Iowa and then moved over to the suburban Chicago area served as a librarian, technology director and then both a building and a district administrator for the majority of that time. And so, building capacity is sort of just an essential for any good leader and you learn that at every level of leadership, hopefully, that, hey, how can we get people to move on and move forward? To build off a little bit of what Natalie was saying just a second ago, that concept of that subject matter expert instructional design piece, as part of my master’s program, that was a big key of how do we get into classrooms and help collaborate with teachers to use whatever the new resources are right from the library facetted perspective.

Steve Baule: 04:17 And so that’s definitely one piece of it and I think that’s a very solid way to build it. And maybe that’s why when I first saw Natalie speak, I was like, hey, she’s got some really good ideas because she kind of has that subject matter expert designer approach. The teachers are always gonna be their own subject matter experts. They’re gonna know the material better than we are. And then interesting enough at the leadership level, one of the big issues for principals is, how do we teach them the coaching skills they need to really be effective coaches because they don’t always have somebody like Natalie, who they can say, hey, come, I need to have an instructional coach work with John or Susie for whatever reason. And so you’ve gotta have those skills. And when I worked for the university of Wisconsin system briefly before I came to Winona, the state of Wisconsin was really trying to push more coaching into the principalship licensure program because there’s definitely a need to do that.

Steve Baule: 05:15 Maybe that’s one nice reason why we hire a lot of former athletic coaches into administrative roles, because they have that natural coaching ability or they’ve built it up over time. But that’s generally one thing we need to do and that goes back to sort of basic leadership theory, Herscher and Blanchard, right? Situational leadership. You have to go to everybody, meet them where they are and then move them forward. And that was one really nice thing that I think Natalie and I agree on is you meet every teacher where they are and then figure out how to build that relationship forward. You don’t just say, hey, I’m here to work with your data. That’s not a good way to move forward.

Steve: 05:55 My read is that growing the people you’ve got is probably a critical reality that most administrators, especially today, are gonna be dealing with.

Steve Baule: 06:09 So much so. When I worked in the Chicago suburbs in about 2005, I’d have a elementary opening and I’d have literally 600 applicants. Those days are over. Now, especially as you’re preparing people in the rural parts of America, you might be lucky if you have a candidate, or you’ll be willing to work with anybody, even if they’re only in an emergency license. I think especially when we’re starting to really look at more alternatively licensed people to get a more diverse pipe stream together to get a more diverse looking teacher and staff within buildings, we really have to figure out, okay, what coaching are we gonna need to do to make sure that this person who’s here is gonna be successful no matter what their initial training was. And actually my experience is, it’s like anything. You talk about any student who can find their own way to school can master the entire curriculum if we teach them properly.

Steve Baule: 07:12 And it’s the same thing with teaching. I’ve had very good luck with a lot of emergency and alternative hires over my career because they were passionate about working with the students. And those students are great, but those people then maybe need more coaching and more resources in order to be successful. And so, those are situations where, how can we coach, no different than with students. We wanna put all of the necessary safety nets in place so that you have to work really hard to fail. And we would give them multiple chances when we look at that master, that sort of growth mindset mastery learning approach to things, same with thing with our teachers. We don’t just say, well, ,et’s see if we can do better, which we might have done 20 years ago, we’re not gonna do that today.

Steve: 08:01 Natalie, I’m wondering as you made the move into coaching, to what extent were you working in a situation where you had coaching,
training and support as you began versus, I know a lot of other people kinda stepped into the role and had to figure it out as they moved along.

Natalie: 08:24 When we started, our first year was mostly going to trainings. Our framework is the new teacher center.

Steve: 08:34 Okay.

Natalie: 08:35 And we have a platform for that where we record our meetings and our conversations with our teachers. Our teachers have access to that platform. So there is that transparency to that communication and what we are capturing of our meetings. But we were lucky that our district sent us to a two year program to learn the framework and what coaching looked like and what coaching didn’t look like. So there are different layers to it. I used the tools in my framework now more than ever and this is my seventh year. I’m about to start my eighth year as a coach. But in that first year, it was very light coaching. So now it’s more at the heavy coaching, but at the beginning, it’s all about creating the partnerships and creating the trust and building that trust so that your teachers see you as a partner in the lesson and in the designing of lessons in units, rather than an evaluator. You never want to be categorized as someone who is coming to grade or evaluate.

Steve: 09:59 So in the in the article that the two of you published, you talked about building relationships, data and action. So I’d kinda like to take those one at a time. Natalie you walked us into that first one of building relationships. Talk a little bit strategy as to how you go about that.

Natalie: 10:25 Building relationships your first years come with all kinds of jobs. So you have to keep in mind that that small step is going to take you to a bigger project. So look at it as, what am I doing to learn a big project? And I, even today, I go and run copies for a teacher because you have to put yourself in their shoes. At that moment, those copies mean the world to my teacher. And if those copies are not ready, they are not going to feel good to go and teach that class, maybe. ABC happened and you are the person they reach out to. So you take that – they reached out to you, so they are seeing you as, you’re my support. So you go and run those copies and go and bring them to the teacher. And that little gesture is going to open the doors for more in-depth work.

Natalie: 11:23 So even covering as well. I’ve had coworkers who say, hey, this just came up. I need to go home 15 minutes before the bell rings. Can you help me? Yes. So next time, you start creating that idea that you are reliable, that you are there for them. And so they’ll start working with you more and more, and creating that culture that your coach is there to help you and the doors start opening. So definitely keep confidentiality. That’s very, very important. You will have questions like, oh, who are you working with today? Or, do you have a very busy day? And you do have to say, well, I’m sorry. I cannot share information. I can tell you I am busy, but I cannot tell you where, unless my teacher wants to share that information.

Steve: 12:19 Does your district lay that out as a guideline, or is that something that you worked out? I talk a lot about the coach principal partnership. So how that confidentiality plays out is always part of that partnership. Some places it’s kind of written into the job description, other places, it needs to be built between the two people.

Natalie: 12:43 It is written in my contract.

Steve: 12:46 Gotcha.

Natalie: 12:46 And so when I create my end of the year reports, I go about trends. So what was the tool I used the most during the year? What was the trend of the work? Was that lesson planning? Was that assessment design? Was that looking at data? Was that designing intervention? So that’s the kind of information I will have for my admin. My minutes per month, so we can see what months of the year I was really going there, like one on one, face to face. And what other months I was doing more designing of products from my computer, because sometimes the work is, can you design this so I can use it in my lesson? And that’s part of my work too. So I can create Google forms or I can create PowerPoints or Google slides, or I can design a website for a class, or I can just present information in different ways and then my teacher delivers the lesson.

Steve: 13:51 Steve, I wanted to ask what role you thought administrators have in assisting trust to be built in the instructional coach relationships?

Steve Baule: 14:02 Well, I mean, the simple thing is that trust takes time, right? And it’s exceptionally fragile. As Natalie said, the teachers need to know that if there’s a concern in a classroom, Natalie’s not gonna go right to the principal and say, hey, by the way, they’re behind, or they’re not following the curriculum map or whatever else, unless, again, it’s a student safety issue. If it’s not a student safety issue, the principal doesn’t need to know that. And the principal needs to trust in the coach that they have that kind of relationship. They can talk in general that you’re not gonna start to ferret out, oh, come on, Natalie, who’s the second grade teacher who’s using up all your time. And I’ve seen those investments even with really good instructional designers or coaches.

Steve Baule: 14:52 Next thing they know, they’re going to a supervisor to complain that these people, if you look at their syllabi or you look at what they’re doing in the classroom, they’re just not doing things the way we want them to. That’s the death knell. So you don’t ever wanna be that person. We used to joke in a military that it takes a hundred atta boys to sort of counter one bad. That’s kind an issue. And so, it only takes one time to really sink somebody. And teachers are a group that, overall, they’re not particularly forgiving when they think their trust has been broken. And so it’s really important to make sure that as you work with people and build those relationships, that you do it slowly over time and give them the opportunity.

Steve Baule: 15:44 I think one of those things that what you need to do is honor what they do currently. You can go into any classroom and look for things to improve. And maybe I’m not particularly good about that, when I grade papers, my students tend to point out things that you need to do better, but not necessarily, you know, at the end, I would kind of say, hey, this is well done sort of thing, but I focus more on where you improve. You can’t do that in that instructional or that evaluative role as an administrator. You need to be able to say, hey, here’s what’s going well, but be honest about it. Never blow, smoke or tell them they’re doing a great job when they know they’re not. Again, you’ll lose that credibility and that trust.

Steve Baule: 16:33 And so, you gotta work around the concept. And one thing I always think about – people would come to me who were in that sort of instructional coach or leadership role and be like, how do I deal with it? They just seem so resistant. And sometimes remember that resistance is because the vast majority of teachers wanna do a good job. They wanna be the best possible teacher they can. And so it’s difficult for them sometimes to say, wow, there’s a better way I could be doing it. That means they have not done it the best way they could have for that previous decade for instance. And that really causes a lot of internal stress in a lot of teachers. I don’t know why that is, but it does really seem to be that way. And so you have to be able to say, here’s what we need to do. This is what you were doing great. Have you thought about this potentially as another option?

Steve: 17:26 There’s there’s a phrase that I use that the principal has a role of making the instructional coach look good and the instructional coach has a role of making the principal look good. If the two of them can work from that wavelength, we’re both gonna make mistakes. So as a principal, I’m gonna say something to the coach in a heated moment about a teacher that I shouldn’t have said an instructional coach in frustration, this teacher who hasn’t shown up twice now for an appointment is gonna say something. But if we’ve developed the trust between the two of us, we take care of each other, knowing that that trust the staff is critical. Natalie, let’s move into the second item that you guys mentioned in the article, which was data. And as you did your intro, you said that that was a role that that you played in your position. So tell us a little bit about how you work with that.

Natalie: 18:30 When we have our MAPS tests or when we have our ISAS tests, which is our Iowa test, now it’s in a digital form, we, two weeks after students submit their answers, we start getting the on demand reports. So I download all the scores for all the students in my building and start looking at the percent of not yet proficient, proficient, advanced, and then go deeper into looking at the domains for each area, ELA math and science. And my goal is, before the end of the year, I will have data tables that indicate what our areas of focus is for next year. And so that we can set goals for our PLCs, our professional learning communities, and that can start those conversations for the fall. Where do we start? And what are the areas we want to focus on? That has really changed how we approach our work at school and my admin team participates in that.

Natalie: 19:50 So it’s changing the culture and more and more, I hear now my coworkers talking about the data. So it is becoming what we do as part of our work. And it takes long hours. I always tell my teachers I’ll do that for you, and you’ll get beautiful charts and you go from there. And they appreciate that because they prepare our students, they motivate them during the tests, and then they know as soon as I have access to the data I’m working on that those visuals that they can even bring to their classrooms and talk with students. So again, we’re not looking at the student names, we’re looking at the trends. How did we do as a class in ELA? How did we do as a class in math, in these domains, algebra or numbers or statistics?

Steve: 20:49 Do you facilitate those conversations with the teachers or does somebody else play the facilitation role?

Natalie: 20:56 We do, and my principal does. So when we have all the charts ready and on Wednesdays, that’s our PLC time, we visit each PLC
and come in with the data and say, it’s ready, we’re going to look at it and what do you notice and what are the areas of focus? Of course, since I looked at the data and worked on it, I already know, but we want them to be part of the conversation and we want them to identify those areas too. We just facilitate the conversation, but that’s how we do it. Our next step is creating that culture in all our PLCs. So that’s the next step to
that. Right now, we are starting in different pockets, but we have to work to make it part of all our PLCs.

Steve: 21:56 So I’ll give you one of my favorite facilitation questions when people are looking at the data. What do the kids need us to learn?

Natalie: 22:05 And so then, that’s a different conversation because then we go through that lesson planning. So we look at what do they need us to learn? So maybe how do we have to unpack that standard?

Natalie: 22:23 And what skills do we need to target to improve that performance score next time. So again, everything is interconnected and one little piece of data can create so many projects in work with our teachers.

Steve: 22:41 I take it back to Steve’s comment that my assumption is that nobody was holding back. So if we look at the data and it’s not what we wanted it to be, then it means we need to learn something. There’s something as a teacher, whether it’s about student motivation, whether it’s about the content, whether it’s about timing and pacing, I don’t know what it is, but if we didn’t get the results we wanted, the question is back to us. And that’s then what drives the teacher learning in the PLCs. Steve, you wanna chime in a little bit on the data from the administrator instructional coach part?

Steve Baule: 23:28 I think one thing we need to do when we look at data is not just think standardized tests.

Steve: 23:34 Yeah.

Steve Baule: 23:34 And one thing when we started, and this was when stegosauruses were yellow and took us to school, right? As we started
moving to one to one, we started to do a lot of bell ringer kind of things that teachers could immediately judge how their students had done. That assessment was immediately there for here’s what we need to do and go forward. And that’s one of the things that, at least for my teachers, when I was a superintendent, they were really shocked about the ability to do with technology. And now, hopefully we’ve got that as just a part of all of our instructional plans. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but those data points I think, are just as valid and important sometimes as standardized tests and we forget that. So we have all of this data, we have all sorts of zeros and ones, but do we have data that we can really do something and be actionable more than, okay, just once a year when we get state test results or three times a year, if you’re using NWE’s map, for instance. But I think that’s really important to try to build that concept, that teachers are always gonna be looking at that assessment information and taking that, making actionable instructional decisions. And we’re not particularly good at that. We definitely don’t prepare people for that in pre-service education the way we should.

Steve: 25:06 One of the strategies I like to use with that is prior to the more formal testing of whatever type it is, asking the teachers to predict the outcome. So if you predict how your students are gonna do in this assessment, and if there’s a substantial gap between your prediction and the outcome, now a whole new set of questions are there. So certainly one question is just a bad day. But another question then is, to what extent is the formative assessment I’m doing along the way, not aligned with the assessment that we’re looking at here? So I’ve been collecting this assessment, but it hasn’t been given me the information I needed, if I’m gonna come back and measure with the other one.

Steve Baule: 25:54 And that doesn’t have to be a complicated assessment. I think sometimes, even when you start saying like, counter-formative assessment, everybody starts to think, oh, let’s get a committee together. No, it’s just a couple of simple questions that can help gauge whether or not the students got yesterday’s assignment together.

Steve: 26:12 Natalie, you wanna add something there?

Natalie: 26:14 Sure. It’s again, the conversation between formal and informal assessment and what do I do every day to see what I need to revisit next class? So having those conversations with my teachers and looking at how can we ensure that everybody learned and understood the concept, enriched the objective of the lesson today. And so one question, just one question that you don’t need to grade, but you look at it and determine, okay, everybody got it so I can move on tomorrow, or I need to start with this tomorrow because we still have some percent of our classroom needing a little more instruction in that. So that’s one thing. And also, bringing some of this to your PLC. When you have vertical teams, like on the high school level, you might not have too many teachers teaching the same grade level, but you have professionals in your area.

Natalie: 27:26 So if I bring this one question and I say, my students struggle with this question, would you look at the structure of the question and did I miss anything? And having those collegial conversations, and that’s part of a rich PLC conversation too, and how you can bring those little checkings to the table. And so that’s the idea. You could have maybe one on Fridays or one every other day or one question at the end of your lesson to really see and determine the pacing and the scope and sequence of your lesson.

Steve: 28:14 So let’s go to the last area that you guys raised in the article, which was action. And Natalie, I’m wondering as I’m listening to you, how much do you look at the PLC as the place that you are working to get action versus the time with individual teachers designed to move to that action? I know it’s some of both, I’m just wondering if you weigh one with more of your time than another.

Natalie: 28:42 I think my first years, it was mostly individual teachers. And as they got to know me and see the work that we can do together, it started moving towards the PLC as well. So when we look at data that that is with the PLC, or when we look at incentives or ways to encourage our students to come to school to work hard, or both conversations are PLC. But mostly I would say my work is one on one, and it’s all based on their goals. My teachers select the area that they want to work on and then we collaborate around that area. It has evolved too into working on PD plans, professional development plans and gathering artifacts that support a goal that they have for the semester. And also, recently, looking at professional evaluations, which was something I never expected, but we are getting into that positive culture of collaboration that
several of them feel comfortable with with me looking their looking at other evaluation documents.

Steve: 30:04 Steve, I’m wondering to what extent working with PLCs is being built in in administrator training and also where you see the instructional coaching piece fit in. Jim Knight and I recorded a conversation sometime back, trying to figure out if in some cases, instructional coaches supposedly went into PLCs to train people how to do them and never got back out so that a lot of the PLC time is being facilitated by the instructional coach, taking away time that Natalie was just describing as being important to work with the individual teachers.

Steve Baule: 30:50 The short answer is the situation dictates. Every school is different. And I think, PLCs come up a lot, particularly with our master students who are aspiring administrators. And many of them take that instructional coach position as they move into more traditional administrative positions. And I love to hear them talk about PLCs because some of them love them and some of them hate them. And I’ve seen PLCs that are somewhat effective and I’ve seen some that are absolutely a waste of everybody’s time. And so, the pure intent is really that they have to be bottom-up grassroots kind of things. How do we fix this?

Steve: 31:35 Teacher has to own it.

Steve Baule: 31:37 Right. If teachers don’t own just is not effective and it just becomes a very time consuming approach to whatever else you’re trying to do. And so, being able to use PLCs, it’s really gotta be teacher driven. And so there’s definitely a place for them, but it requires the right organizational culture to get there. I mean, no different at the university level. There are some places where people would come and say, Natalie, can you take a look at my evaluation and give me some feedback? There are other people who would never share their evaluations with somebody else. And so that’s the thing – I think we need to do a better job of modeling that at the university level for teachers because most pre-service teachers, when they go out, the only person they’ve ever worked with is their cooperating teacher.

Steve: 32:34 You’re making me smile. I wrote a piece a while back that said, peer coaching should be built into the training for teacher candidates as to go through. But the ultimate would be if the professors were implementing coaching so that teacher candidates saw their professor receiving coaching from a colleague and create that as the culture of what we’re looking to work with.

Steve Baule: 33:01 You can also get that, I mean, I ask my students right before I teach a class. I’ll send a syllabi to a few of the students who I know have expertise in that area sometimes and say, all right, what am I missing? What’s new, that’s coming up that I don’t have? We make changes and you have to be able to model that flexibility because that is important. And I think, at least in my experience as an administrator, and I used to have my administrators, for instance, I would always have them do a self-evaluation before we sat down to do their evaluation. 99% of them were tougher on themselves than I would ever be for sure. The other 10% said they were perfect and they were usually the ones we needed to get rid of cause they weren’t paying attention.

Steve Baule: 33:45 When I was an assistant principal, for instance, we built out a peer review situation for our teachers who wer tenured and had gotten excellent evaluations. They were ruthless to each other in a positive way though. I mean, they were really pushing each other to excel. And I think that that’s what we’re looking for and in a perfect world , that instructional coach will help people who are struggling, but it helps to build through that PLC environment and other ways of making a culture one of really building a continuous improvement culture, where, hey, can you come and take a look at my classroom? Or, what do you think? Especially when we start to put a lot of our materials online. In an LMS, whatever, and you can really easily share your materials with your colleagues.

Steve Baule: 34:34 If you build that time for them to work together, you can start to get that continuous improvement and I think that’s like the PLC issues like, okay, how do they work well? One of the best things we were able to do is give teachers, before we’d implement something new, we’d give them some time in the summer just to work collaboratively in their group. No deliverables, nothing. But just, I don’t care if you go to Starbucks and meet or wherever, just spend some time talking through your process and making sure that you’re build what you need to do for the students. And that I think is really effective. And then when they need an instructional coach or a technology person to come in and help, those resources are there. But the goal is to make sure that number one, they have a chance to talk to each other.

Steve Baule: 35:20 And hopefully the principals also rotate through those groups and kind of know what’s going on. When we were doing key kind of changes myself, the curriculum directors would make sure that we got into those meetings as well. And occasionally, even had our pieces of insight to share. But it all comes back to getting people to really collaborate and say, hey, we gotta continue to try to build and do a better job. And we always know there’s gonna be a need for change because we’re always needing to differentiate as our student bodies change. Even if they look the exact same, the 30 bodies in your room this year are not gonna be the 30 bodies that are in your room next year.

Steve: 36:00 Well, I thank both of you for your time here. I wanna give you one last question to close us out. So we’re at the time of the year where some people are gonna start prepping for their first time as a new instructional coach and other people might be a new instructional coach to a building. So I may have been an instructional coach for a while, but now I’ve changed jobs. So I was gonna ask each of you to take a shot at what’s one top advice piece you’d give to people stepping into those new roles. So Steve, why don’t you start us off this time?

Steve Baule: 36:37 You know, I’d say watch and listen. Don’t come in and think you’re gonna fix everything right away. Any good leader comes in and figures out the lay of the land first. I would add to that, when you do some training, make sure whatever you do is very tangible. And there’s something quick that you can show that people can take and use in their classroom tomorrow because then they’re gonna come back to get the next piece.

Steve: 37:00 Natalie?

Natalie: 37:02 I agree. Baby steps. Be patient with yourself, understand that you are going to learn to listen. And as you listen, you’ll
identify entry points and then, try to build some sentence stems to get those conversations going like, oh, tell me more about it or why, and trying to get to the actual need or goal that the teacher has. Read. I started reading Elena Aguilar and Diane Sweeney and Jim Knight. And the three of them are like my foundation for coaching. Looking at Elena with transformational coaching and being a human and Diane Sweeney with the student-centered approach and then, Jim Knight, which is the work I want to start doing right now because it’s all the heavy coaching. So making sure you practice a servant leadership approach. You are here to help your teachers and they will appreciate and welcome any help that we can provide. And be compassionate and understand that we are all in our own journey and that as coaches, we build capacity and support new leaders for our buildings and we have to enjoy seeing that growth and we have to be there for our teachers.

Steve: 38:47 Thank you. I’ll put a link to the article piece that you wrote in the lead-in to the podcast so folks can find it. The best way that listeners might follow up with you if they have a question.

Steve Baule: 38:59 E-mail is probably best.

Natalie: 39:04 Same for me.

Steve: 39:06 Go ahead and tell me your e-mail, but I’ll also post it.

Natalie: 39:09 It’s profe.ulloa16@gmail.com.

Steve: 39:25 Thank you. And Steve?

Steve Baule: 39:34 steven.baule@winona.edu

Steve: 39:42 All right, guys. Thanks so much. And have a great great break coming up here.

Steve Baule: 39:48 Well, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Natalie: 39:49 Thank you.

Steve: 39:50 You Bet.

Steve Baule: 39:50 Bye.

Steve [Outro]: 39:53 Thank you for listening. You can subscribe to Steve Barkley, ponders out loud on iTunes and pod B. And please remember to rate and review us on iTunes. I also want to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter at Steve Barkley or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs Barkley.

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