The authors of “Intentional Influence: Harnessing Cultural Mapping to Build Commitment,” share their insights that enable leaders to reflect, explore step-by-step processes, and take concrete actions to impact culture and learning across their “spheres of influence.” By employing Cultural Mapping, leaders can create a personnel map of influence and thus support hidden flow of influence, and apply a strategic approach to increase commitment to organizational goals and scale initiative implementation. Their process is applicable for leaders at all levels.
Email Bobby Dodd: robertdodd43783@gmail.com
Email Ben Johnson: ben.johnson80@gmail.com
Visit the Cascading Solutions website here.
Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!
Podcast Transcript:
[00:00:00.280] – Steve [Intro]
Hello and welcome to Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud. Together, we’ll explore ways to support teacher growth, elevate your coaching practice, and boost student success. Each week, I’ll share my own insights, as well as conversations with inspiring guests to help you lead with confidence. Thanks for listening.
[00:00:30.000] – Steve
Building the culture we want and the one that student success requires. I’m delighted to have two highly experienced school leaders who are recognized leadership coaches joining the podcast. Doctors Ben Johnson and Bobby Dodd. As I read through their bios, these words describing their focus and commitment jumped out to me as keys for leadership: Culture, learning, trust, collaboration, and reflection. Their just released book, “Intentional Influence: Harnessing Cultural Mapping to Build Commitment,” supports leaders at all levels who have experienced creating a vision and a plan, and then only run into a stall, that place where resistance creeps in and momentum fades. It’s that spot where authority is insufficient and influence is necessary. I’m looking forward to the insights that they will share. It’s a special opportunity for me to have Ben on as a guest, as I consulted with him for a number of years in his role as Assistant Superintendent for Secondary Schools in Bismarck, North Dakota.
[00:01:45.880] – Steve
Welcome, Bobby and Ben.
[00:01:48.360] – Ben
Thanks for having us, Steve.
[00:01:49.860] – Bobby
Yeah, thanks for having us.
[00:01:51.940] – Steve
I’m excited about it. I’d like to begin looking at two terms from the title of your book so that we can listening with understanding. And the first term that I wondered if you might address is the word influence. Would you flesh that out for us?
[00:02:10.060] – Ben
Yeah, Steve, I think that oftentimes people look in organizations, whether they’re school organizations, nonprofits, or even businesses about seeing that Christmas tree hierarchy, that that’s what authority means that you have influence to others. We would urge that really, influence is shaped by the professional networks of relational connections that are based upon true trust and the intersection of that daily work. Sometimes that means that people who don’t have those titles are the colleagues that have the most credibility among their peers and those that they work the closest with. We believe that that influence flows through your spheres of influence, not the chain of command.
[00:02:52.620] – Steve
I think that’s interesting, not only looking at it at the higher leadership levels, but I find teachers who don’t understand the “influence” that other teachers have, and they think there’s something going on behind the scenes that they’re being left out of. But the influence comes from the way the person has worked within the system and the relationships and connections they’ve built.
[00:03:26.100] – Ben
Yeah, that connection is currency. It’s like we have currency with one another because we’ve spent time and energy with one another. We know that we can trust our colleague. We’ve been through things or I see them. I’m more likely to be influenced by those spheres of influence that are tightly connected. And that’s really what our cultural mapping brings that, I think, as different as really trying to be intentional about looking at where that hidden, invisible culture is emerging because of those relationships, because of those connections of the peers that are close to one another, and then how you can harness that to multiply your impact or sustain what we call leadership cascades.
[00:04:07.160] – Steve
I’m going to ask then if you talk a little bit about cultural mapping. You’ve described it as a diagnostic tool and a strategic framework. I have to make an admission here. Until Ben talked to me about the book, I was unfamiliar with the term cultural mapping.
[00:04:28.660] – Ben
That’s probably a good thing because we made up a new term, although maybe someone else uses it for a different way. Really, we talk about those relational connections, who’s connected to who, who influences who, who’s closer to one another. Then we really focus on commitment levels, either commitment to the vision and the direction of a culture, or really, I think with much of your audience, too, is also the ability to scale initiatives. Who’s on board with, maybe it’s project-based learning, maybe it’s standard-based approach or scaling PLC, who buys into that direction and who has capacity and understanding. So who’s on board and then how are they connected with one another? And so it’s really trying to make that invisible different pieces of information. I look at it like a mosaic, right? Each little tile, but you start putting it together and we actually are mapping and drawing on a white board or a piece of paper and color coding and creating there. You start to see this picture that emerges and you can start to see where information and influence is flowing. I’ll bring Bobby in to see from his end how he defines it too.
[00:05:35.720] – Bobby
I like how you’re saying it because as Ben and I always talk about, it’s like creating a systemic culture of influence. It’s not something you see in leadership. It’s something sometimes, especially when we coach, you’ll approach leaders and they feel like they’re in a spot where they don’t know what to do. Really, when you start grounding yourself in relationships, using in this system, you can see progress. I think it lets you see influencers visually, as Ben was talking about that mosaic, whether it’s on a napkin, on a board, there’s a starting point in it, and then use that starting point and able to affect others positively along with that influence.
[00:06:20.180] – Steve
Can I say you’re laying out consciously something that historically only got dealt with unconsciously?
[00:06:30.700] – Ben
I think it was accidental versus purposeful, or you might see parts of the system versus truly mapping the whole system gets me to realize, for example, that one individual might be best friends in a different department or a different grade level. You might have spouses that are working in a school system, or thinking about an accounting firm or a marketing firm. You might have two people that were roommates 10, 20 years ago or worked at a former company together. We know these little bits of information. What Bobby and I have also found, too, is sometimes people, leaders, what we’re talking about, no matter what the organization, sometimes don’t know as much as they really need to know personally and professionally about the people that they’re entrusted to lead. So part of our framework and process is then trying to be intentional and realize where you have gaps of information and then try to fill that in so that you can start to see that influence. So as I was alluding to before, and Bobby talked about when we go and coach people, start having people put what they know about individuals. And all of a sudden, they realize, well, what do you know about this?
[00:07:42.160] – Ben
Well, they like to go mountain biking. And the week on the weekend. And then you’re talking later on, it’s like, “oh, that person mountain bikes.” And I said, I had to pause my leadership team. I’m like, “do they know that they both mountain bike?” And they just all looked around like, I don’t know. I’m like, that would be a good thing to try to connect them with over. And then they did. And so then the next time I came back and they talked about that synergy that these two people, “Hey, do you know that Billy mountain bites? Yeah, we should…” And it’s like, all of a sudden, I was told, and I forget where it comes from. So I’ll just make up the stat like other things – like 90% of people stay at the job if they like their boss and they have a friend at work. So I think part of that in this day and era in all jobs, shortage, but especially in school, is retention is the new recruitment. So we have to be able to create those conditions where people feel like they belong and that they’re part of something with significant and purpose.
[00:08:37.950] – Ben
And we see that in all generations, but I think especially in some of our younger generations, is they want to have meaningful work, not just a paycheck, too. I think it behooves the leaders to come in and say, where are my people? Do I really know my people? How can I harness those connections and build connections where they don’t exist, where there might be gaps?
[00:08:57.360] – Bobby
It’s funny, Steve. It’s It’s one of those things as a leader, people say, “Well, do you really know your team? Do you really know your staff?” Then you sit back and say, “Oh, yeah, I do. I do.” What Ben and I found out is you really don’t. Sitting down and being purposeful is important in these purposeful meetings as we’ll talk about and those types of questions and those connections like Ben was talking about people’s interests. Once you really get to know, that’s when the mapping can really be fully effective for you and your organization.
[00:09:30.460] – Steve
I’ll tell you what’s jumping out as a listen to both of you is because I’ve worked on this a lot with teachers around the issue that your students need to be known and they need to know that they’re known. So you knowing, but the kid not knowing that you know is insufficient. I’m just carrying that same thought through to leadership. The members of your staff need to be known, and they need to know that you know.
[00:10:01.540] – Ben
And Steve, to that point, at some point, where do you stop and where do you focus?
[00:10:06.900] – Ben
We believe that this can be scaled to not only thinking about teachers or other adult lenses, but this could be very applicable to fine arts or athletic organizations, right? When you think about teams, and then also, I believe in the classroom, looks a little bit different, but especially maybe even in elementary or middle school teams, where you have kids for multiple times throughout the day, organized. I think teachers can use this lens, too, of who gets it, who’s on board with where we’re headed as a classroom and as maybe a team or an organization as well. So I love you adding that lens as well.
[00:10:44.760] – Bobby
I think of modeling, right? You were talking about, Steve, we always want teachers to get to know our students. And as leaders, we need to get to know the people on our team. We need to model that for others, right? So if I’m going to have meetings with teachers and ask them questions, and not just teachers, anybody on my staff, and get to know them more and get to really deep down see what makes them great, what’s their points where they would like to add input, their opinions. We want our teachers or anybody on our teams has done what’s saying any organization, we want to model that for them so then they go into the same thing. I think that’s important about the cultural mapping is it starts with us as leaders, as we say throughout the book, and then that sphere of influence just carries on.
[00:11:30.740] – Steve
Well, you jumped us into the next question that I had, and that was that you describe leading starting with yourself that you just touched on there, Bobby, starting with yourself and then with others, then with teams, and then with organizations. I’m wondering if you walk us through that structure or approach.
[00:11:54.920] – Ben
We say that there’s three levels within that. You got to lead yourself in order lead others. In that, when it becomes beyond individual one-on-one leading others, it’s really about leading small-scale teams. Then teams are comprised, as you spider web that out, into the entire organization. So same with cultural mapping. But If you don’t know what your core values are as a leader, how do you know what you’re trying to lead people towards? If you haven’t been clear on whether it’s professional learning communities, some of our schools are embracing project standard-based learning or standard-based reporting, grading, feedback, whatever initiative, but also just what do we believe about kids? What do we believe about how we want to interact and create that learning environment? Being crystal clear on that first and foremost is important because once you have that, that can be a lightning rod, I guess, so to speak, that can really start to create that cascade and those ripple effects throughout. And so then as Bobby is talking, he can speak some more about that. We get into having one-on-one meetings that sometimes are formal and sometimes informal. But I would stress that you need both, where you’re really trying to learn who are your people and build capacity and also get those feedback loops to get to know them and figure out who you can connect and build their capacity.
[00:13:17.340] – Ben
Because you’re trying to create that clarity in the mapping process that can also add empowerment that allows you to really start scaling that commitment throughout the organization. And subcultures, I think, are really impactful. So much of you in organizations, life and breath is really what’s happening in those subcultures. If it’s a grade-level team or at a large high school, it might really just be the science department. That’s how people’s identity is more so or middle school, it’s a team. Same in other organizations. Then as a leader, as you’re being intentional about, am I building capacity in all these…Do I have someone in each of those groups or multiple people that we’re trying to build that capacity? All of a sudden, now, where’s the intersection between pockets of excellence to is it becoming systemic? Then that’s part of where that cultural cascades comes from. Last I’d say with this is really my daughter – we write a few different stories, and some of them are parts of Bobby and parts of me and parts of maybe a few others. But my daughter was obsessed with wolves, my youngest. We went to Yellowstone one time, and I just sat there and I was watching this movie about how the wolves changed rivers was what it was entitled.
[00:14:31.430] – Ben
In there, they just really talk about the Yellowstone. I know there’s different perspectives on the wolves, but reintroducing a Keystone species was a great metaphor for us to look at how systemically leadership coming back, which is to this point, is reintroducing that systemic leadership. The wolf was just the wolf. It just did the wolf behaviors. As a pack, it got organized and worked together. That started changing the behavior of other animals that then eventually affected the regrowth of trees and willow trees and bushes and berries. All of a sudden, birds are coming back and beavers now can be those subcultures and create ecosystems within. It’s just natural order. We feel that a lot of times there’s a lack of organizational leadership or leaders are hired to come and fix something. We just need people to be really clear on who you are because then you can start to align others towards that and allow them to be the best version of themselves within that organization. Again, we say the best version, obviously, it doesn’t mean that you don’t need to change your sands and edges. But as you do that, now you’re going to be intentional how you can create those cascades within those teams, those subcultures, and then throughout those ripple effects throughout the organization.
[00:15:45.860] – Ben
And again, that impact is able to be seen when you have a map and you know where you should be intentional about investing your time and energy.
[00:15:54.520] – Steve
Bobby, you want to add anything to that?
[00:15:56.600] – Bobby
Yeah, I think Ben, he hit the nail on the head. He talks about… First of all, I think he has a whole other book on wolves, if you ever want to get that. [laughter] He is really knowledgeable in that area. But it’s great. And he explained it to me and it made complete sense. But we start talking about those meetings that are purposeful, and sometimes they’re informal. It’s great because what happens is you get to know a little bit more about people. You ask specific questions, and then it takes that informality and changes it to that they know you care about them. Then, as I said earlier, that caring creates that relationship, and then it spreads and it cascades all throughout the organization. But going back to your original question, it starts with us. It starts with the leaders because that’s who everyone is looking towards. Everyone is looking towards us. Once we can get that cascade going, that ripple effect going, as Ben said, down into our teams, or down to our captains, or down to our department heads, everyone has to see that happen and it has to start with us. Whether it’s formal or informal, all those conversations make a heck of a difference.
[00:17:10.180] – Bobby
I know Joe Sanfilippo always talks about, really, all you need is about 30 seconds. You can make a huge difference with somebody in just 30 seconds of time. And so I always remember that when it comes to those meetings, whether you’re scheduling that meeting or if it’s just passing someone in the hall.
[00:17:27.620] – Ben
I would just add to that. What I think we just want to really clear is there’s that through line. It’s personal clarity and your relational credibility leads to team cohesion that allows you to have organizational momentum. And again, that’s by leading oneself, leading others, intentionally getting to know them, and now intentionally building up teams that allow for a systemic and productive culture.
[00:17:51.520] – Steve
You’ve got me caught up in my reading and study a long time back and working with Margaret Wheatley’s work. The whole ecosystem piece has just always made total sense to me that the whole top-down organizational model just doesn’t fit in to what you see actually happening within the organization. Might look good on a nice piece of paper or a report that goes out, but it’s not the real piece. I’m wondering if you might both share an example, either from your own leadership work with your teams, or maybe a coaching example of working with cultural mapping and what you implemented and what you saw happen?
[00:18:50.300] – Bobby
Back to when I was a building leader, we had a situation, and I’m so grateful for Ben because sitting with him and talking with him and being able for him to share things with me, it enlightened me and I was able to take it back and use it immediately, even before the book even started. I remember a time when we were looking at our building. We thought we had a great building. We thought we had a lot of great things going on, which we did. But then we also had some feedback in there, some negativity, and we just couldn’t wrap our heads around it. We would have staff member sharing things, whether they were through surveys, whether they through out in the community. Very similar in the book, we talk about the opening story with Ron. That’s a real life story. That really happened. What we started doing, we were sitting around, we were like, How can we get the best out of our best people? Because sometimes we get burned down with resistors and we get caught up in the disengaged. We wanted to really focus on our committed and how are we going to get the best out of them?
[00:20:01.340] – Bobby
And so literally, I talked with Ben and I started reading some things and I said, Well, let’s figure out who the best of the best are. Let’s write them on the board. We were in a private meeting, we had a whiteboard, and we started jotting the names down. And then that led us to, okay, let’s maybe create some 15-minute meetings, meet with not just them, but the entire staff, and be purposeful with our questions and figure out, okay, how a summer vacation, getting to know people, then also having a question of, “Hey, tell me, we’ve been hearing some feedback about maybe staff’s opinions not being heard. Can you share a little bit about that?” What you’re able to do is figure out a little bit more about people, about the relationships. If you’re documenting those things down and taking them back to your team, it enabled us to create that map. What we were able to do was connect with people who as Ben said earlier, had similar interests, but then also find people who, well, right now they seem to be a little bit… They feel like they’re on an island. I said, well, let’s get them connected.
[00:21:11.000] – Bobby
And so what we started doing was purposeful grouping at different events, different meetings. We were asking the committed to assist us as well. I have a story that’s not shared in the book, but it’s something that you could work at an organization where staff members go to a happy hour every Friday or on the weekend or they get together. If you know some of those committed people, when you have a conversation with them and say, “Hey, when you’re with Jerry today, ask him his thoughts on this idea that he gave to me and that you gave to me, and you said you worked with him.” That literally happened. They came to me. Just like in the book, there was a story about somebody for years hearing no about their ideas. One time they came and I said, “Hey, let’s do it. Go see what his thoughts because you could partner with him and do it.” Well, sure enough, this happened outside the organizational setting, and they were able to connect, and it started a ripple effect of transferring maybe some negative energy that existed there. It got one person starting to see positive. As Ben will always tell you, just because somebody is a resister, they can change.
[00:22:23.400] – Bobby
You can make that change. I know we’re going to talk about that a little bit, but I saw it happen right before my eyes as people started to change a little bit. Maybe for years, they weren’t there. But as we say in the book, at some point, people had that light in their eyes. People had that enthusiasm. That’s why they got into education or that’s why they started working for an organization It’s there. Sometimes we just lose our way. It’s as Jimmy Cassis talks about, you just lose your way sometimes. It’s on us as leaders to try to help get that back. With the mapping, I was able to see it. Then I would tell Ben about it, and he’s like, “Yeah, that’s it. You’re doing it.” Just that story there, it changed – I tell people, it’s the most valuable thing that ever happened in my career. Like, what? Just meeting with people? Yeah, exactly. Because I thought I knew people, but in reality, I really didn’t. And once I did, they saw that, and then things just started a spiral effect in the building was then the teachers see that, the students see that, and it can create a more solid and profound culture.
[00:23:32.380] – Bobby
And that’s the beauty of culture mapping.
[00:23:35.160] – Steve
Thanks, Bobby. Ben, you have one?
[00:23:38.120] – Ben
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think Bobby hit on so many great elements, that truth-telling of where it’s actually It moves from theory to you actually do it, and it can be a very practical work. I think we outlined the steps in the book. But again, it just simply… This becomes a process that has evolved and comes from my… Just how do you see that behind the picture and how do you make it visual? You need a roadmap. If I have a roadmap, I can know how to try to navigate. In my work, as leadership, it’s leading people and it’s navigating the political wins within schools or really trying to bring people back in the fold, as Bobby talked about, that had maybe lost their way a little bit. We always talk about not labeling people, but rather how do you categorize people? I think that’s an intentional distinction because some people might say, well, what do you feel about labeling someone as a resister? What I would say is I’m categorizing them there based on the evidence that I see. But if I’m presented with different evidence or they start to move, and again, this isn’t to judge or ostracize someone, but it’s rather to be like, where do I need to put my time and energy?
[00:24:49.520] – Ben
Because I’m only one person and I need to multiply that effect throughout the organization. So I need to know who has influence, social and formal influence, and how do I invest and build capacity in them. So I’ve done this throughout, and it’s obviously evolved throughout my time in leadership. I’ve done things like this, sometimes with initiatives and sometimes just like, where are we going and who’s on board with this new direction as we’re headed? I’ve seen that be beneficial to many colleagues. A coaching example, I’d say real quick, is coaching with an individual, and we plotted it out, and he’s having some real struggles with not feeling like clear communication was going on. We mapped out his building leadership team. He was at an elementary. So K-5 and he had seven billion leadership members, and five of them were resistors. And there came some transfers, a couple of retirements, and some crucial conversations. And the next year, a breath, fresh air, because now people are actually carrying the banner, carrying forth that information and helping there be clear communication where it maybe wasn’t happening because you didn’t have people that were aligned there.
[00:25:54.560] – Ben
Again, it’s not just to surround yourself with positive, but you need to work with the willing. And then I think that’s intentional that they need partners as well to pair up, and that’s part of the cultural mapping. I’m always looking, who’s that next wingman or woman that can join forces where people can get some capacity together to create that energy and synergy within the organizations?
[00:26:17.800] – Steve
Guys, I want to float a thought that’s in my head now past you. Feel free to tell me if I’ve totally blown this off. But the more I’m listening to you, you’ve mapped out a process to assist people in doing what we know needs to be done. All of your examples – it’s almost common sense, but it’s not being done. The time to reflect and figure out how to do it isn’t being dedicated to it. I sense that what you’ve done is laid out for people how to do it. I’m having trouble finding anybody that would argue against your points.
[00:27:08.540] – Ben
I think that point resonates with me as some leaders that I’ve talked with, they’re like, “Hey, I think I do this.” It’s like, you now do it intentionally and systematically because I’ve worked it through you. So now you do it and we revisit it. But you didn’t see the forest through the trees. You saw these on – all these are isolated. And that’s the point of where we’re trying to say mapping. It was a great discussion with one team with Principal and APs, and they were arguing back and forth as to where one individual might be based upon their own personal experiences. And again, that’s where I’m like, it’s not about labeling and getting it right. It’s just what are the look for’s? And we outlined some of that that you can use to say, this is where I think the person is.
[00:27:58.380] – Bobby
Great.
[00:27:59.520] – Ben
Where are they now? And then what are you going to do to try to help influence them either directly or through their peers to move it forward? But again, people, it’s like, pay now and play later or play now and pay later. And if you don’t take some of that time, I’m so busy, but you need to have a blueprint. My grandpa was a general contractor. You need to know what you’re going to be doing. So you do things in order and you have an understanding of the direction we’re headed and the steps along the way. And if you have no map, you’re just going to be wandering through that. I think It’s where then frustration creeps in and people can throw their hands up in the air. Bobby’s talked about that with other people, too. It’s like they just don’t know what to do next. And again, just simply mapping it. Now you can start to see, this is where I am in current reality. Where do I want to move it? Where’s the opportunity for growth and intentional work?
[00:28:49.140] – Steve
As I was reading through your work, what kept coming to mind is the leadership people I’m working with who can complain about the problem, describing what’s happening now, but there’s no plan to change it. If I wait till next year, maybe I’ll have a different team.
[00:29:11.680] – Bobby
Yes, Steve, you bring up a great point. Ben and I talk about this, especially when we coach people. Leadership, it’s always moving very fast. I think in this day and age, a lot of leaders, whatever organization it is, there’s a tendency to get overwhelmed. That term is very popular now. And so when you get overwhelmed, it gets to a point like one of our characters in the book. It was like, I got a decision I have to make. I’m either going to take this path or I’m going to take this path. And when it comes to the mapping, very purposeful. And so what that does is it allows that overwhelmingness to maybe come away a little bit. When Ben and I, when we coach, it’s like, no, hold on a second, let’s slow down and let’s start figuring some things out instead of that initial reaction of, I don’t know what to do, and I can’t…This person’s always going to be that way. Well, you need to figure out what makes the person. Who are they? Then maybe you can… If you do all that, if you go through the mapping, Ben and I always talked about this, you go through this and try this, and things still don’t change, I’d be completely shocked, first of all.
[00:30:18.860] – Bobby
But if then things don’t change, then you have a person…Also in the book, we talk about what do we do if you end up having a resistor like that. But that’s rare because when you put time in, you invest in people, it’s tough for them not to see that and then have at least a slight change and to embrace the culture that everyone’s trying to create in your organization.
[00:30:49.160] – Steve
A lot of the listeners to this podcast are instructional coaches or administrators who are supporting and working with instructional coaches. I’m wondering – what are your thoughts connecting to cultural mapping as a way of building out a culture of coaching within a school?
[00:31:14.540] – Ben
I’d say that I think from the instructional side, there’s perhaps multiple lenses that you could look at it, but this provides you with a leadership lens to see, is it true resistance or is it a lack of skill? Or is it will? Then you need to be able to uncover that and have conversations, but you can peel the layers back and understand what’s the history, what’s going on? Have they been burned before? Have they just lost their way? Do we need to connect them with others that can help them feel more confident in the skillset? So I think oftentimes, too, is a coach can come in and do it only so much. So that’s part of the intentionality of mapping because you’re looking for that peer influence, that second-grade teacher who can be influenced by a colleague down the hall or across the way who might be able to help them and show them and understand from their perspective a little bit more. I think that that resistance. What are they fearful of? If we can try to unearth that, then it allows us maybe through conversation, a clarity, common ground, being able to figure out how to go forward.
[00:32:27.800] – Ben
I also think that it can be used when someone is at a point in time, I won’t versus I don’t know how, we need to make sure that we contain that resistance so that that doesn’t drag down or be cancerous to others. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t need to be addressed, but we need to be able to build capacity sometimes in those that are around that individual so that the rest of the group can keep moving forward. But again, I think that by knowing… I can’t talk about origin stories. By knowing people’s story and where they come from, it allows us to maybe to figure out where they’ve been burned before, maybe as a different leader. I always say, you as a leader, you may not have caused a dysfunction, especially when you’re hired there, but it’s your responsibility to heal it. That’s from my parents who are psychiatrists, therapists, and all that. Maybe I bring that, too. It’s like, you’re hired into a system. It’s now your system. It’s now – you got to figure it out. But again, I think every person who’s experiencing burnout, educator or employee, has that come back story left to be written.
[00:33:30.500] – Ben
But it’s going to take a little bit of time and healing, and they need to see that you’re truly invested with them and in others. Sometimes that means that you work on others and they are watching and observing. Are you genuine? Are you going to use something against them? Or can I be trusted to be like, I’m vulnerable? But again, I think it’s not just behooven to the instructional leader or the principal administrator, leader manager, but it’s also how can you get the other peers to help that person move forward?
[00:34:00.720] – Steve
It was ringing for me when you used the knowing their story. That really is a starting point here, isn’t it?
[00:34:10.240] – Ben
Absolutely. Everyone’s got a story, and we’re in the people business. It’s relational. You got to train and develop them and see them as unique humans who have perhaps some history that needs to be uncovered, or they may have some brilliance that they just need to be able to hear that resounding, yes, in in order to find their way back to why they came into a service profession or whatever other organizational purpose and intent that they have.
[00:34:40.680] – Steve
I’m wondering, people who read your book and they decide they want to take a stab at working with cultural mapping, you got thoughts or suggestions as a starting point for them?
[00:34:56.540] – Ben
This is not a total how-to book, but there’s a how-to book within in this book. There’s a few chapters in there that it’s really about being intentional about those spheres of influence, the leading oneself, leading others, leading teams, leading organizations. And in the middle, how do I lead it? I lead through cultural mapping. At some point in time, if I’m going to move beyond one-on-one conversations and do it systemically, you need to create a map. There’s a few chapters in there that really talk about how to create a cultural map and some work that you can do within that to reflect as well as then plan and take steps necessary to move beyond that. So like Bobby talked about, real examples I’ve used, whether it’s a whiteboard, chart paper or napkin, I think he said, to me, writing and it gives you some symbols and a little key to be able to start plotting out who’s who, where are they, do they have formal influence? Do they have formal influence, both or not sure who influences whom, is at a strong connection, a moderate connection, where are they at based upon the look for’s, and it gives you a bolted look for us of commitment that you could use as well as stories to try to help you trigger, oh, yeah, I see this in this person.
[00:36:15.640] – Ben
And so that can really, I think, be helpful. To me, it’s a repeatable event. Ideally, maybe once every six months, beginning of the year, end of the year, going into next year and just seeing where the growth is. But we always have new people every year, too. Then what do you do with it? To me, that’s part of the reflection is you look for where are the groups? Like Bobby talked about, it might be people that go out for margaritas and chips on Fridays after work, or it might be, hey, there’s another group of closely connected individuals. Okay, so who in there can be an influencer and someone that’s positive that we can build upon? Where’s my entry points? I really see the belief that not only people that are committed, they need to have that intentional investment of your time and energy as a leader or an instructional coach, right? But then who’s that next up person? Who’s that other person that you can build a little bit of capacity with? That now you may have two people and they can ping off of that, and then that really creates that. And there’s science behind that in terms of threshold adoption for some people at various different levels.
[00:37:22.660] – Ben
But again, you want to get another person there, another person there. And then all of a sudden, just like diffusion of innovation, you get that triggering effect where a cascade occurs, where then others just start adopting it more rapidly because enough of their teammates, colleagues, they’re seeing it, and now it’s like, alright, I’m willing, or I have enough support around, and I’ve seen proof that I’m willing to move forward with it. So that’s where I would simply start. We also are obviously available to reach out and be able to talk through. And we do this in person as well as can reach out to us and figure out different ways to help you figure out where you want to move forward.
[00:38:05.040] – Steve
What’s the best way for listeners to be able to follow up with you with questions and find out more?
[00:38:12.120] – Ben
We’re both on social media, so we have that out there. Dr. Ben Johnson, because I’m cursed with a common name, but look me up on LinkedIn. I’m here in Bismarck Public Schools. I have that as a distinguishing there as my real-time job. But then I’m sure you can find Bobby and I through those, and Bobby can share that out. I also have a website that’s up and running, but we continue to be built out, and that’s cascadingsolutions.org. So there’s opportunity It’s there.
[00:38:46.400] – Bobby
Yeah, with me, Steve. It’s @bobby__dodd on Instagram and Facebook, and then I’m also on LinkedIn as well. And as Ben said, the website is coming together. So multiple ways to get in touch with us about this.
[00:39:04.560] – Steve
Well, we’ll stick that in the lead-in to the podcast. I appreciate the time, guys. You got me thinking, and you reinforced a lot of things for me. I’ll be sending people that I’m working with to be taking a closer look at the book and being more conscious in in their leadership work.
[00:39:32.840] – Ben
Thanks, Steve. I appreciate the opportunity. Again, we always say, and at the end of the book, we say, you get the culture you build, not the one that you merely wish for. And so we hope that engaging in this cultural mapping and the intentional reflection about your spheres of influence can have clear steps to moving forward, to have that blueprint where you can create that organization, where the commitment is thriving, whether you’re in a school, a business, or nonprofit. If you can intentionally harness those cascades of cultural influence, you can refine that joy in leadership and move forward whatever work is necessary in your world. We appreciate your willingness to have us on today.
[00:40:13.430] – Steve
Well, thanks because what I just caught there is not only joy for the leader, but joy for the folks you’re leading.
[00:40:19.840] – Ben
Absolutely.
[00:40:21.360] – Steve
That’s really a big payoff. Thanks a lot, guys.
[00:40:24.770] – Bobby
Thanks, Steve.
[00:40:26.720] – Ben
Thank you.
[00:40:26.720] – Steve
Thank you. Thanks for listening, folks. I’d to hear what you’re pondering. You can find me on Twitter or LinkedIn at Steve Barkley, or send me your questions and find my videos and blogs at barkleypd.com.
